2006-06-14T08:53:09 <mvirkkil> There was talk about moving away from page attachments, and having atachments be items or something. What timescale are we talking about? Is this going to happen within 1.6?
2006-06-14T09:04:37 <ThomasWaldmann> mvirkkil: Kepplar is working on that
2006-06-14T09:05:18 <mvirkkil> ThomasWaldmann: For SoC?
2006-06-14T09:05:42 <ThomasWaldmann> yes
2006-06-14T09:06:08 <mvirkkil> Ok.. I need to talk to him then.
2006-06-14T09:06:37 <ThomasWaldmann> might be a bit too early still
2006-06-14T09:07:07 <mvirkkil> How would you recommend I do the docbook+images -> wikipages+images ?
2006-06-14T09:07:30 <mvirkkil> basically the docbook->wiki conversion will be done using xslt:s.
2006-06-14T09:08:00 <mvirkkil> And I think I want people to upload their docbook+resources (usually images) as a zip.
2006-06-14T09:08:14 <mvirkkil> But how should they upload them?
2006-06-14T09:08:55 <ThomasWaldmann> currently attachments are put under a page
2006-06-14T09:08:55 <mvirkkil> Should I make it an action which generates a page with an upload field?
2006-06-14T09:09:19 <ThomasWaldmann> with items, they will be like a sub-page, but with different mimetype
2006-06-14T09:09:22 <mvirkkil> ThomasWaldmann: Yes, but since one docbook will be split in to multiple pages, with a single mainpage.
2006-06-14T09:10:09 <mvirkkil> and if the pages are created as subpages or not will probably need to be a configuration option.
2006-06-14T09:11:02 <mvirkkil> But the basic UI problem remains. How should a person upload a complete docbook, and where do I put my code to do the splittin, conversion, and pagecreation?
2006-06-14T09:11:20 <mvirkkil> An action, perhaps?
2006-06-14T09:11:49 <ThomasWaldmann> currently, it has to be an action
2006-06-14T09:12:11 <ThomasWaldmann> when we have mimetype items, that action can be moved there maybe
2006-06-14T09:13:43 <ThomasWaldmann> there will be a generic up/download function in a toplevel item
2006-06-14T09:13:44 <mvirkkil> Ok, and i suppose it's ok to just to attach all resources to the created mainpage
2006-06-14T09:15:04 <mvirkkil> Works for me :)
2006-06-14T09:21:43 <mvirkkil> People are asking me about the 1.6 release (or whatever release which will contain the SoC-projects). Is there any timetable or pre-timetable I could give them?
2006-06-14T09:33:08 <ThomasWaldmann> we still have to see what stuff succeeds in getting releasable
2006-06-14T09:33:39 <ThomasWaldmann> but as you are working on a side branch of 1.6, some 1.6 release is not too far fetched
2006-06-14T10:02:26 <mvirkkil> ThomasWaldmann: So, I can tell them that 1.6 will be released sometime before next year?
2006-06-14T10:02:52 <mvirkkil> (and I'm going to do my best to have my code in releasable shape)
2006-06-14T10:02:54 <ThomasWaldmann> it will be released when it is ready :)
2006-06-14T10:03:03 <mvirkkil> ThomasWaldmann: Yeah :) As always..
2006-06-14T10:04:28 <mvirkkil> are other large changes going to be targets for 1.6 besides the SoC ones?
2006-06-14T10:05:37 <ThomasWaldmann> well, when the storage backend / item stuff is done, we need some mimetype handler work
2006-06-14T10:06:00 <ThomasWaldmann> as you have seen, I also already did some cleanup in the src
2006-06-14T10:07:06 <ThomasWaldmann> but xapian, storage/mimetype, wiki sync and your stuff will be the bigger things
2006-06-14T10:08:12 <ThomasWaldmann> the item stuff will be the biggest internal change, affecting much other stuff
2006-06-14T10:12:30 <ThomasWaldmann> mvirkkil: btw, your last commit is 5 days ago.
2006-06-14T10:18:45 <ThomasWaldmann> s/commit/push to public repo/
2006-06-14T12:57:47 <mvirkkil> ThomasWaldmann: I know. Haven't coded much since. And my mercurial went bye-bye :(
2006-06-14T12:58:26 <xorAxAx> mvirkkil: how is that?
2006-06-14T12:58:59 <mvirkkil> xorAxAx: The dapper package this guy built for me was messed up.
2006-06-14T12:59:32 <xorAxAx> simply use setup.py
2006-06-14T12:59:52 <mvirkkil> xorAxAx: I will. Once I have something to commit.
2006-06-14T13:00:02 <mvirkkil> s/commit/push to public repo/
2006-06-14T13:00:52 <xorAxAx> hehe
2006-06-14T13:02:21 <mvirkkil> xorAxAx: My mentor told me to keep tabs on your progress. And also to mention they'd be interested in (beta)testing your stuff and that I should make sure it integrates with my stuff :)
2006-06-14T13:02:42 <xorAxAx> hehe
2006-06-14T13:02:54 <xorAxAx> currently i need input on my thoughts
2006-06-14T13:03:05 <xorAxAx> i will upload my newest ideas about using mercurial today
2006-06-14T13:03:20 <mvirkkil> xorAxAx: using mercurial for syncing?
2006-06-14T13:03:31 <xorAxAx> yes
2006-06-14T13:03:45 <mvirkkil> xorAxAx: What about your xmlrpc approach?
2006-06-14T13:03:46 <xorAxAx> not all of it, but some base ideas and a few classes
2006-06-14T13:04:01 <xorAxAx> mvirkkil: i can still do it over xmlrpc
2006-06-14T13:04:09 <xorAxAx> mvirkkil: you know, the merging logic is the key problem
2006-06-14T13:04:17 <xorAxAx> my described algorithm has a few deficies
2006-06-14T13:04:31 <xorAxAx> that i have been knowing for quite long
2006-06-14T13:04:44 <mvirkkil> xorAxAx: Merging is your main problem? In what way?
2006-06-14T13:05:24 <xorAxAx> mvirkkil: imagine three wikis a,b,c. normally a merges with b and b with c. now a wants to merge with c, that wont work
2006-06-14T13:05:39 <xorAxAx> its the non-distributed vs. distributed VCS problem
2006-06-14T13:06:09 <xorAxAx> i am currently evalutating if it is feasible to bring DVCS approaches into the solution
2006-06-14T13:09:18 <mvirkkil> I'm not familiar with the problem why " a wants to merge with c, that wont work" happens?
2006-06-14T13:11:56 <xorAxAx> because a and c dont have any information about the common parent that both wikis share
2006-06-14T13:12:05 <xorAxAx> they dont know about each other
2006-06-14T13:13:10 <mvirkkil> I'm sorry but I'm still not sure why. Just looking at a page from A and C, why can't they be merged? Or is the revision history the problem?
2006-06-14T13:13:41 <xorAxAx> mvirkkil: in order to do a 3-way merge, you need to have a common ancestor
2006-06-14T13:14:00 <xorAxAx> and that one cannot be determined without the correct "tags"
2006-06-14T13:15:06 <mvirkkil> xorAxAx: Ok. Not familiar enough with the subject. You know what you are doing. Good luck :)
2006-06-14T13:15:23 <mvirkkil> xorAxAx: Stumbled accross this, thought it might interest you: http://www.guiffy.com/SureMergeWP.html
2006-06-14T13:16:44 <xorAxAx> no :)
2006-06-14T13:20:52 <mvirkkil> How about this one? http://subversion.tigris.org/variance-adjusted-patching.html
2006-06-14T13:20:55 <mvirkkil> :P
2006-06-14T13:23:49 <xorAxAx> mvirkkil: i dont want to create a new file-based merge algorithm :-p
2006-06-14T13:24:40 <mvirkkil> xorAxAx: What do you _want_ to do?
2006-06-14T13:25:07 <xorAxAx> mvirkkil: find the ancestor, hell damn :-p
2006-06-14T13:25:28 <xorAxAx> common ancestor even
2006-06-14T13:26:19 <richardb> You want something like the rsync protocol, perhaps.
2006-06-14T13:26:38 <richardb> Send hashes of the historical revisions from each wiki, and look for shared values.
2006-06-14T13:33:50 <xorAxAx> richardb: no, that doesnt solve the distributed scenario either, does it?
2006-06-14T13:35:17 <richardb> Not even if each wiki sends the hashes of all the ancestor revisions, even if they're not from that wiki?
2006-06-14T13:35:29 <richardb> I admit I haven't really looked into what you're trying to do.
2006-06-14T13:35:51 <xorAxAx> i just want to syncronise 2 wikis
2006-06-14T13:36:07 <xorAxAx> and my current idea is that i might want that without problems in n-wiki scenarios
2006-06-14T16:10:30 <Kepplar> hi
2006-06-14T16:10:31 <Kepplar> yea
2006-06-14T16:10:46 <Kepplar> meta data on the flat file storage engine and attachments should be in within the next few days
2006-06-14T16:10:49 <Kepplar> but
2006-06-14T16:10:53 <Kepplar> thats without any intergration into the moin engine
2006-06-14T16:11:26 <Kepplar> ThomasWaldmann: i may be out for a few days while i move to Cambridge, just giving you a heads up
2006-06-14T16:14:55 <Kepplar> with the metadata problem which have two choice
2006-06-14T16:15:01 <Kepplar> a) go with the current format
2006-06-14T16:15:10 <Kepplar> or b) refactor to include alterations to the directory
2006-06-14T16:15:28 <Kepplar> this will make this system incompatble with previous versions
2006-06-14T16:15:56 <Kepplar> personally i prefer the idea of going with a flatfile module and a compatbility mode which just inherits and overrides the metadata stuff as usual
2006-06-14T16:16:11 <Kepplar> but might be problematic as how i've done data is literally just pull the content of the file out
2006-06-14T16:19:53 <ThomasWaldmann> what's the problem with something similar to MetaDict ?
2006-06-14T16:20:09 <Kepplar> the main issue with the cambridge delay is they've now installed frigging wireless and i dont have a pci card or a laptop with duel
2006-06-14T16:20:24 <Kepplar> metadict?
2006-06-14T16:21:05 <ThomasWaldmann> alzheimer?
2006-06-14T16:21:14 <Kepplar> ?
2006-06-14T16:21:46 <ThomasWaldmann> I already pointed you to wikiutil.MetaDict 1-2 weeks ago
2006-06-14T16:22:09 <Kepplar> probably, but since theres no real documentation i probably forgot :)2A
2006-06-14T16:22:36 <richardb> Kepplar: moving to Cambridge, UK? I'm very near there (9 miles). What are you going to be up to there?
2006-06-14T16:22:59 <Kepplar> hmm?
2006-06-14T16:23:31 <mitsuhiko> Kepplar: man epydoc
2006-06-14T16:24:00 <mitsuhiko> the moin sourcecode contains of many docstrings
2006-06-14T16:24:30 <Kepplar> lets just say, best not for me to comment on my opinion of some docstrings ive seen :)
2006-06-14T16:24:54 <xorAxAx> mitsuhiko: isnt it nice? http://moin.pocoo.org:8080/moin-1.6-storage-a?f=0c860f556272;file=MoinMoin/storage/flatfile.py
2006-06-14T16:25:02 <xorAxAx> mitsuhiko: vb-compatible storage abstraction :)
2006-06-14T16:25:17 <mitsuhiko> omg
2006-06-14T16:25:33 <mvirkkil> Kepplar: I understand you'll lay some groundwork for supporting metadata?
2006-06-14T16:25:45 <Kepplar> xorAxAx: vb compatible?
2006-06-14T16:25:48 <mitsuhiko> it's Hungarian notation
2006-06-14T16:25:52 <Kepplar> xorAxAx: my code is far from finished :P
2006-06-14T16:26:07 <mitsuhiko> xorAxAx: and smallCase for classnames
2006-06-14T16:26:34 <mitsuhiko> each module it's own styleguide. that's moin :)
2006-06-14T16:27:01 <Kepplar> if people have a point, make it :P
2006-06-14T16:27:03 <xorAxAx> mitsuhiko: its modern art you philistine!
2006-06-14T16:27:05 <mitsuhiko> 84 def fs_rev_to_int_rev(self, str_revision):
2006-06-14T16:27:05 <mitsuhiko> 85 """Converts file system revision notation to integer.
2006-06-14T16:27:05 <mitsuhiko> 86
2006-06-14T16:27:05 <mitsuhiko> 87 @param str_revision: File system revision notation.
2006-06-14T16:27:05 <mitsuhiko> 88 @return int_revision
2006-06-14T16:27:05 <mitsuhiko> 89 """
2006-06-14T16:27:07 <mitsuhiko> 90 return int(str_revision)
2006-06-14T16:27:12 <Kepplar> yes
2006-06-14T16:27:15 <xorAxAx> Kepplar: we had it already a few times before
2006-06-14T16:27:17 <ThomasWaldmann> Kepplar: getting a wlan card shouldnt delay you much. you can get such stuff at every corner...
2006-06-14T16:27:23 <mitsuhiko> yeah. it's a int() clone
2006-06-14T16:27:27 <mitsuhiko> (or alias?)
2006-06-14T16:27:28 <Kepplar> no
2006-06-14T16:27:41 <Kepplar> that is completly valid
2006-06-14T16:28:21 <Kepplar> The function that is called describes an action. That action may or may not change in the future, it should not be tight-ly coupled with the actual operation
2006-06-14T16:28:36 <Kepplar> should the mechanism alter, instead of replacing it all over the place, you replace it once
2006-06-14T16:28:37 <xorAxAx> Kepplar: the fs rev should never leak the proxy
2006-06-14T16:28:40 <Kepplar> Basic software design
2006-06-14T16:28:49 <Kepplar> leak?
2006-06-14T16:28:50 <xorAxAx> Kepplar: so such a method should not be public
2006-06-14T16:28:58 <mitsuhiko> Kepplar: use just one id
2006-06-14T16:28:59 <xorAxAx> Kepplar: leak! no other object should know it
2006-06-14T16:29:05 <Kepplar> agreed
2006-06-14T16:29:08 <Kepplar> it is private
2006-06-14T16:29:09 <mitsuhiko> there shouldn't be a public internal id
2006-06-14T16:29:12 <Kepplar> i havent _ed it yet
2006-06-14T16:29:15 <ThomasWaldmann> Kepplar will have to rename all those functions and attribute names before it gets into main. fun :)
2006-06-14T16:29:26 <mitsuhiko> .oO(where's the leading underline?)
2006-06-14T16:29:37 <xorAxAx> Kepplar: just make a comment but not an underscore
2006-06-14T16:29:40 <Kepplar> There isnt because its work in progress
2006-06-14T16:29:42 <xorAxAx> Kepplar: in the docstring
2006-06-14T16:30:07 <mitsuhiko> xorAxAx: erm. why not an underline?
2006-06-14T16:30:10 <Kepplar> ThomasWaldmann: whats wrong with the function name?
2006-06-14T16:30:18 <xorAxAx> mitsuhiko: because i dislike that :)
2006-06-14T16:30:28 <mitsuhiko> hehe
2006-06-14T16:31:00 * ThomasWaldmann is talking of <type>_<name> type names
2006-06-14T16:31:00 <xorAxAx> ok, it would be ok
2006-06-14T16:31:03 <mvirkkil> Kepplar: Is it generic enough so that one may embed annotations like lets say we have an article about Einstein and at some point his dad Hermann would be mentioned. Now I want to annotate that Hermann-fatherOf-Albert.
2006-06-14T16:31:26 <Kepplar> ?
2006-06-14T16:31:32 <Kepplar> mvirkkil: what are you talking about?
2006-06-14T16:31:42 <mvirkkil> Kepplar: The metadata stuff you are laying the groundwork for.
2006-06-14T16:31:57 <Kepplar> ThomasWaldmann: I've failed to meet anyone outside this room who endorses you're approach to naming convensions
2006-06-14T16:32:04 <Kepplar> your*
2006-06-14T16:32:24 <xorAxAx> mvirkkil: sounds like RDF
2006-06-14T16:32:26 <Kepplar> mvirkkil: i just store the metadata, i don't care how it's used, the storage engine isnt intelligent like that
2006-06-14T16:32:28 <ThomasWaldmann> NOONE code python like you do, believe me.
2006-06-14T16:32:37 <xorAxAx> LOL
2006-06-14T16:32:38 <mitsuhiko> Kepplar: i don't get it. you're a soc student?
2006-06-14T16:32:43 <Kepplar> mitsuhiko: yes
2006-06-14T16:32:48 <mvirkkil> xorAxAx: (it is. I'm working at my universitys semantic web research lab)
2006-06-14T16:33:00 <mitsuhiko> Kepplar: so do what your mentor tells you
2006-06-14T16:33:02 <xorAxAx> mvirkkil: it mainly means storing 2-tuples per page
2006-06-14T16:33:07 <Kepplar> ThomasWaldmann: sure, everyone has different naming convensions, but all have an indicator on type
2006-06-14T16:33:10 <xorAxAx> mvirkkil: which is trivial :)
2006-06-14T16:33:32 <mitsuhiko> and i don't think ThomasWaldmann likes Hungarian notation
2006-06-14T16:33:34 <mvirkkil> xorAxAx: What is trivial? Storing key value pairs about the wikipage?
2006-06-14T16:33:36 <Kepplar> mitsuhiko: i do, but i refuse to write bad code
2006-06-14T16:33:51 <mitsuhiko> Kepplar: Hungarian notation IS bad code
2006-06-14T16:33:52 <xorAxAx> mvirkkil: yes
2006-06-14T16:34:04 <xorAxAx> mitsuhiko: except in VB
2006-06-14T16:34:11 <mitsuhiko> even the inventor of that bullshit isn't using it any more
2006-06-14T16:34:21 <mvirkkil> xorAxAx: Yup. That's why it's also not interesting to me :)
2006-06-14T16:34:28 <mitsuhiko> xorAxAx: option explicit
2006-06-14T16:34:44 <mvirkkil> xorAxAx: With the exception of putting some simple additional information in to docbook.
2006-06-14T16:34:54 <Kepplar> mitsuhiko: bad code, why? lol
2006-06-14T16:35:00 <xorAxAx> mitsuhiko: doesnt change it
2006-06-14T16:35:04 <ThomasWaldmann> all our soc students should keep in mind that half term report is not too far away
2006-06-14T16:35:31 <mitsuhiko> xorAxAx: ok. you're right. vb sucks ^^
2006-06-14T16:35:32 <mitsuhiko> scnr
2006-06-14T16:35:57 <Kepplar> agreed, vb is the spawn of the devil
2006-06-14T16:36:18 <mitsuhiko> then why do you use vb naming rules?
2006-06-14T16:36:21 <ThomasWaldmann> and there should be some substantial stuff visible for the mentor as a base for that report
2006-06-14T16:36:44 <mitsuhiko> ThomasWaldmann: do you know the famous paula been? ^^
2006-06-14T16:36:46 <Kepplar> you'd be out the door in UK industry if you tried to write code without types defined in the name, litterally no joke
2006-06-14T16:36:48 <ThomasWaldmann> or he won't have much to write in that report
2006-06-14T16:37:00 <richardb> Um.
2006-06-14T16:37:05 <richardb> Kepplar: not true.
2006-06-14T16:37:10 <Kepplar> richardb: where do you work?
2006-06-14T16:37:19 <ThomasWaldmann> mitsuhiko: from dailywtf?
2006-06-14T16:37:24 <richardb> Software consultant, cambridge, UK.
2006-06-14T16:37:34 <mitsuhiko> ThomasWaldmann: jup
2006-06-14T16:37:36 <xorAxAx> richardb is an unemployed stranger living under a bridge! just because he stopped using hungarian notation 30 years ago
2006-06-14T16:37:40 <xorAxAx> (i presume)
2006-06-14T16:37:46 <xorAxAx> thats life! :)
2006-06-14T16:37:47 <richardb> :)
2006-06-14T16:38:01 <Kepplar> code without it is simply unmaintainable
2006-06-14T16:38:14 <mitsuhiko> rofl
2006-06-14T16:38:14 <Kepplar> i have yet to hear a good reason against it
2006-06-14T16:38:26 <mitsuhiko> Kepplar: use google
2006-06-14T16:38:55 <Kepplar> richardb: what company/
2006-06-14T16:39:17 <ThomasWaldmann> and read thedailywtf.com about paula been(?) :))
2006-06-14T16:39:39 <richardb> My own consultancy, but clients include lots of IT firms.
2006-06-14T16:39:56 <mitsuhiko> Kepplar: http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2002/4/12/153445/601
2006-06-14T16:40:01 <mitsuhiko> http://www.richardhaleshawgroup.com/RHSGroup/Community/blogs/richard_hale_shaws_blog/archive/2006/05/01/233.aspx
2006-06-14T16:41:39 <richardb> My personal dislike of hungarian notation is that in well designed code it is unnecessary, and just slows development down.
2006-06-14T16:41:56 <Kepplar> i find it speeds it up
2006-06-14T16:42:01 <Kepplar> especially in distributed development environments
2006-06-14T16:42:14 <Kepplar> k5 article has a couple of good points i have to say
2006-06-14T16:42:21 <richardb> For example, in C, it should be obvious from the name of a function what type of thing it will accept, due to what the function does.
2006-06-14T16:42:39 <richardb> In python, though, functions should accept whatever type contains the information needed.
2006-06-14T16:42:46 <Kepplar> yes
2006-06-14T16:42:56 <Kepplar> i've taken that into account
2006-06-14T16:43:19 <richardb> So, whilst I could just about imagine it being useful in some C projects (eg, where the design isn't clear enough, and can't be fixed)...
2006-06-14T16:43:25 <Kepplar> as i have said - if you want it removed, I will do it at the end, but not before
2006-06-14T16:43:26 <richardb> I can't see why it would ever be useful in python.
2006-06-14T16:44:02 <richardb> well, I'm not your mentor, or a core moin devel, but it sounds like you're going to have to do that. ;-)
2006-06-14T16:44:20 <Kepplar> richardb: however my protest will go into my report
2006-06-14T16:45:40 <mitsuhiko> rofl
2006-06-14T16:45:47 <richardb> Speaking of reports and things, has anyone seem fpletz over the last few days?
2006-06-14T16:45:52 <mitsuhiko> a student that ignores coding guidelines
2006-06-14T16:46:04 <Kepplar> theres guidelines?
2006-06-14T16:46:59 <ThomasWaldmann> yes, there are. they didn't include "dont use hungarian notation" yet, but we can add that.
2006-06-14T16:47:11 <mitsuhiko> Kepplar: http://moinmoin.wikiwikiweb.de/CodingStyle
2006-06-14T16:47:24 <mitsuhiko> it says "follows pep8"
2006-06-14T16:47:33 <mitsuhiko> and pep8 defines variable names
2006-06-14T16:47:38 <Kepplar> ah well, all python code should be pep8
2006-06-14T16:49:44 <__doc__> wer is hier der mit der ungarischen notation?
2006-06-14T16:49:56 <mitsuhiko> lol
2006-06-14T16:49:58 <__doc__> ^^
2006-06-14T16:49:59 <mitsuhiko> __doc__: en chan
2006-06-14T16:50:03 <birkenfeld> __doc__: in english
2006-06-14T16:50:04 <mitsuhiko> it's Kepplar
2006-06-14T16:50:08 <__doc__> ah
2006-06-14T16:50:16 <__doc__> Kepplar: you should be ashamed of yourself
2006-06-14T16:50:19 <ThomasWaldmann> Kepplar: duck! :)
2006-06-14T16:50:26 <xorAxAx> 16:49:53 -!- Irssi: New peak in #moin-dev@freenode : 16
2006-06-14T16:50:31 <__doc__> Kepplar: I just looked at your source and I thought I go blind
2006-06-14T16:50:53 <Kepplar> ?
2006-06-14T16:51:08 <Gromit> means, __doc__ is not amused
2006-06-14T16:51:22 <__doc__> oh I'm amused just fine
2006-06-14T16:51:27 <Kepplar> whats wrong with the code? (Except for being work in progress)
2006-06-14T16:51:29 <Gromit> oh
2006-06-14T16:51:31 <Gromit> do
2006-06-14T16:51:34 <__doc__> did enough C++ olden days Borked things
2006-06-14T16:52:14 * mitsuhiko sets the topic to moinmoin comedy channel
2006-06-14T16:52:19 <Gromit> BTW: do you have a link to the code?
2006-06-14T16:52:20 <__doc__> Kepplar: that's wrong str_location
2006-06-14T16:52:28 <__doc__> http://moin.pocoo.org:8080/moin-1.6-storage-a?f=0c860f556272;file=MoinMoin/storage/flatfile.py
2006-06-14T16:52:28 <Kepplar> ?
2006-06-14T16:52:37 <__doc__> Kepplar: what's str_ there?
2006-06-14T16:53:05 <Kepplar> its a string?
2006-06-14T16:53:19 <__doc__> Kepplar: no, it's not a string, a string is str()
2006-06-14T16:53:24 <xorAxAx> str_ soudnds like an unnamed string
2006-06-14T16:53:26 <Gromit> urgs: 18 self.str_PAGEDIR = "pages"
2006-06-14T16:53:30 <Gromit> self?
2006-06-14T16:53:39 <__doc__> Kepplar: it's a type prefix designator
2006-06-14T16:53:48 <mitsuhiko> __doc__: student tries running away
2006-06-14T16:53:49 <mitsuhiko> that's str
2006-06-14T16:53:53 <Kepplar> Gromit: yes?
2006-06-14T16:54:12 <Kepplar> ive lost you
2006-06-14T16:54:18 <__doc__> Kepplar: so what if you decide you don't want location to be a string?
2006-06-14T16:54:25 * xorAxAx fetches some popcorn
2006-06-14T16:54:26 <birkenfeld> Kepplar: if you were consistent you'd have inst_self
2006-06-14T16:54:35 * Gromit takes another look
2006-06-14T16:54:42 <mitsuhiko> >>> class A(object):
2006-06-14T16:54:42 <mitsuhiko> ... self.cant = 'work'
2006-06-14T16:54:42 <mitsuhiko> ...
2006-06-14T16:54:42 <mitsuhiko> Traceback (most recent call last):
2006-06-14T16:54:42 <mitsuhiko> File "<stdin>", line 1, in ?
2006-06-14T16:54:43 <mitsuhiko> File "<stdin>", line 2, in A
2006-06-14T16:54:46 <Kepplar> birkenfeld: inst_self?
2006-06-14T16:54:47 <mitsuhiko> NameError: name 'self' is not defined
2006-06-14T16:55:03 <birkenfeld> Kepplar: yes, self is an instance. to signify that you add "inst_"
2006-06-14T16:55:06 <xorAxAx> birkenfeld: ACK. def foo(inst_of_class_x_self, str_bar, int_baz): ...
2006-06-14T16:55:18 <mitsuhiko> rofl
2006-06-14T16:55:19 <birkenfeld> xorAxAx: no, def meth_foo
2006-06-14T16:55:24 <xorAxAx> birkenfeld: OOPS!
2006-06-14T16:55:25 <birkenfeld> or, def str_foo
2006-06-14T16:55:27 <Kepplar> mitsuhiko: *shrugs*
2006-06-14T16:55:43 <Kepplar> mitsuhiko: fair enough, i just need to move it, i can't remember everything without running it
2006-06-14T16:55:51 <Kepplar> at the moment I haven't tested the code
2006-06-14T16:55:53 <mitsuhiko> Kepplar: NO
2006-06-14T16:56:03 <mitsuhiko> 1.) drop those prefoixes
2006-06-14T16:56:24 <mitsuhiko> 2.) just remove the self. for constant assignment
2006-06-14T16:56:39 <Gromit> how about: 18 str_PAGEDIR = "pages"
2006-06-14T16:56:40 <Gromit> 19 str_USERDIR = "user"
2006-06-14T16:56:40 <Gromit> 20 ser_CURRENT_FILE = "current"
2006-06-14T16:56:41 <__doc__> Kepplar: what's a list of strings for you, list_str_myvar?
2006-06-14T16:56:44 <birkenfeld> btw, what are temporary constants?
2006-06-14T16:56:48 <Gromit> i do that all the time
2006-06-14T16:56:54 <Kepplar> __doc__: just a list
2006-06-14T16:57:07 <__doc__> Kepplar: and what about if you change the type, say you don't want location to be a string anymore?
2006-06-14T16:57:15 <Kepplar> its immutable
2006-06-14T16:57:17 <Gromit> birkenfeld: "constants aren't, variables won't" as murphy says
2006-06-14T16:57:22 <mitsuhiko> birkenfeld: constants assigned in instSelf
2006-06-14T16:57:26 <Kepplar> you'd be copying it anyway
2006-06-14T16:57:30 <__doc__> Kepplar: you do prefixes everywhere
2006-06-14T16:58:02 <__doc__> Kepplar: how do you know what a function returns?
2006-06-14T16:58:02 <mitsuhiko> __doc__: hmm. a list of tuples of str and int...
2006-06-14T16:58:17 <Kepplar> docs?
2006-06-14T16:58:25 <birkenfeld> doesn't get_data return a get?
2006-06-14T16:58:29 <__doc__> Kepplar: c'mon be consistent, that must be called tuple_myfunction
2006-06-14T16:58:36 <mitsuhiko> rofl
2006-06-14T16:58:41 <Kepplar> lol
2006-06-14T16:58:55 <xorAxAx> today's lesson: every bigger open source program has a community that joins the team in important situations, even if they are not contributing to the matter
2006-06-14T16:59:02 <__doc__> ^^
2006-06-14T16:59:13 <mitsuhiko> __doc__: str_int_tupleMyFunction please
2006-06-14T16:59:15 * __doc__ knows why he's not goint to look at moinmoin, ever
2006-06-14T16:59:27 <__doc__> mitsuhiko: right, but then how do you know structure
2006-06-14T16:59:33 <Kepplar> fair point with the get_ return, however im following pep8 when it comes to function naming convension
2006-06-14T16:59:35 <__doc__> mitsuhiko: you need a braces identifier
2006-06-14T16:59:43 <mitsuhiko> hmm
2006-06-14T16:59:56 <__doc__> mitsuhiko: let's take x for opening brace and X for closing
2006-06-14T17:00:09 <mitsuhiko> yeah. that's good
2006-06-14T17:00:13 <mitsuhiko> and c for comma
2006-06-14T17:00:17 <__doc__> mitsuhiko: tuple_x_int_str_X_myfun()
2006-06-14T17:00:23 <__doc__> mitsuhiko: good!
2006-06-14T17:00:41 <__doc__> mitsuhiko: tuplexintcstrXmyfun()
2006-06-14T17:00:41 <mitsuhiko> def meth_tuple_x_int_c_str_X(inst_self):
2006-06-14T17:00:52 <__doc__> mitsuhiko: what kind of inst is that?
2006-06-14T17:00:58 <mitsuhiko> yeah
2006-06-14T17:01:09 <mitsuhiko> def meth_tuple_x_int_c_str_X(inst_MyClass_self):
2006-06-14T17:01:18 <mitsuhiko> __doc__: care of metaclasses!!!
2006-06-14T17:01:21 <__doc__> mitsuhiko: but derive that MyClass from a new style or not?
2006-06-14T17:01:23 <mitsuhiko> def meth_tuple_x_int_c_str_X(inst_MyClass_of_type_self):
2006-06-14T17:01:28 <__doc__> yeah!
2006-06-14T17:01:42 <ThomasWaldmann> maybe we could make a channel #chan_hungariannotationhaters for that
2006-06-14T17:01:54 * birkenfeld thinks of writing an obfuscator using hungarian notation
2006-06-14T17:01:57 <__doc__> Kepplar: you with us?
2006-06-14T17:02:21 <__doc__> mitsuhiko: ohwait, how do you know that's a function and not a method?
2006-06-14T17:02:34 <__doc__> ah, meth right?
2006-06-14T17:02:42 <mitsuhiko> __doc__: hmm. and the module name?
2006-06-14T17:02:46 <__doc__> mitsuhiko: what if it also is decorated with a property?
2006-06-14T17:03:15 <mitsuhiko> __doc__: we don't need properties. man get_str/set_str
2006-06-14T17:03:16 <Gromit> birkenfeld: jup, PyPy's anotator would help there
2006-06-14T17:03:24 <__doc__> myproperty_meth_tuple_x_int_c_str_X(inst_MyClass_derives_OtherClass_which_is_new_style_type)
2006-06-14T17:03:31 <birkenfeld> __doc__: I think the next step would be to remove the function name since the prefix is unique without it
2006-06-14T17:03:40 <__doc__> birkenfeld: good point!
2006-06-14T17:03:45 <birkenfeld> and it gets shorter then
2006-06-14T17:04:05 <__doc__> birkenfeld: and we could shortify it by taking the first two letters of every _ seperated prefix in camel case
2006-06-14T17:04:07 <Gromit> whioch would read: myproperty_meth_tuple_x_int_c_str_X(inst_MyClass_derives_OtherClass_which_is_new_style_type_with_name_removed?
2006-06-14T17:04:20 <birkenfeld> Gromit: yes, just like this
2006-06-14T17:04:31 <__doc__> MyMeXIntCStrX(InDeOtWhIsNeStTy)
2006-06-14T17:04:47 <birkenfeld> __doc__: hey, that reminds me of Windows API
2006-06-14T17:04:50 <__doc__> right
2006-06-14T17:04:55 <__doc__> wonderfull isn't it
2006-06-14T17:04:59 <mitsuhiko> hmm
2006-06-14T17:05:03 <do3cc> Thats unreadable, you should write metapython code and run it through a parser, which makes python out of it
2006-06-14T17:05:06 <Gromit> did we now make enough fun of Kepplar's coding style?
2006-06-14T17:05:07 <Kepplar> Ok lets just get a few things straight. a) i dont care about getting involved with elitist pythonic community squabbles, i produce instustry standard code. Should it need refactoring at the end to fit you're designs, then thats your choice but for productivity sake I would like to continue with my code. Furthermore you have your opinions - which is fine by me. I disagree, and to be honest, I find the general moin code so badly documented its serious
2006-06-14T17:05:09 <birkenfeld> it's even wonderful
2006-06-14T17:05:15 <__doc__> Kepplar: c'mon let's join, startup your svn and make some *sensible* prefixes there!
2006-06-14T17:05:16 <mitsuhiko> __doc__: and what if a function takes str and unicode?
2006-06-14T17:05:18 <birkenfeld> "Hungarian Python"?
2006-06-14T17:05:33 <__doc__> "i produce instustry standard code" muaaaaahahahahahroflbtc
2006-06-14T17:05:38 * birkenfeld now really rolls on floor
2006-06-14T17:05:48 <birkenfeld> LOOOOOOOOOOOOOL
2006-06-14T17:05:53 <__doc__> mitsuhiko: hard hard
2006-06-14T17:05:57 <Kepplar> __doc__: you obviously never worked in industry
2006-06-14T17:06:00 <mitsuhiko> best comedy ever
2006-06-14T17:06:06 <mitsuhiko> ROFL
2006-06-14T17:06:08 <__doc__> Kepplar: I'm a successfull programmer for the last 7 years
2006-06-14T17:06:12 <__doc__> Kepplar: be my guest
2006-06-14T17:06:30 <birkenfeld> .oO( how did Python ever get used in industry without using hungarian notation? )
2006-06-14T17:06:31 <Kepplar> "successful" ok
2006-06-14T17:06:53 <__doc__> Kepplar: type elitist, much better then no-nonsense elitist eh?
2006-06-14T17:07:00 <Gromit> Kepplar: jus a question, to understand you better:
2006-06-14T17:07:10 <Gromit> From whcih country are you?
2006-06-14T17:07:13 <Kepplar> UK
2006-06-14T17:07:18 <mitsuhiko> __doc__: .oO(is hungarian notation web2.0?)
2006-06-14T17:07:26 <__doc__> mitsuhiko: yeah!
2006-06-14T17:07:43 <mitsuhiko> i really like to publish that log on lucumr
2006-06-14T17:07:46 <birkenfeld> Kepplar: "I don't care" is not appropriate when coding within a community
2006-06-14T17:07:48 <Gromit> IC, thanks?
2006-06-14T17:08:00 <xorAxAx> Gromit: not from ungaria :)
2006-06-14T17:08:05 <xorAxAx> h
2006-06-14T17:08:06 <Kepplar> birkenfeld: i don't care about the squabbling
2006-06-14T17:08:12 <Kepplar> not the working together
2006-06-14T17:08:16 <Kepplar> as soon as it gets elitist
2006-06-14T17:08:20 <xorAxAx> mitsuhiko: link the wiki page tonight
2006-06-14T17:08:20 <mitsuhiko> lol
2006-06-14T17:08:22 <Kepplar> i only hear "meemmemememememem"
2006-06-14T17:08:29 <mitsuhiko> xorAxAx: I'll do
2006-06-14T17:08:43 <birkenfeld> Kepplar: define "elitist"
2006-06-14T17:08:59 <mitsuhiko> xorAxAx: or i will extract the most important part. don't want do diggeffect wikiweb.de :)
2006-06-14T17:09:33 <__doc__> Kepplar: could you please write an interpreter that translates your code to human readable semantic form?
2006-06-14T17:09:51 <Kepplar> __doc__: are you unable to see str as a string?
2006-06-14T17:10:00 <mitsuhiko> __doc__: ThomasWaldmann is so quiet. i'm sure he's writing that interpreter atm
2006-06-14T17:10:11 <mitsuhiko> str == bytes
2006-06-14T17:10:12 <__doc__> Kepplar: well you know usually I prefer to read names at face value
2006-06-14T17:10:13 <Kepplar> __doc__: imho, moin's code is generally hard to read
2006-06-14T17:10:17 <mitsuhiko> unicode == string
2006-06-14T17:10:21 <ThomasWaldmann> no, I am doing some work in parallel :)
2006-06-14T17:10:30 <__doc__> Kepplar: ahum, since it's hard to read on general you don't want to stick out right?
2006-06-14T17:10:53 <__doc__> Kepplar: and specially I hate to run a redefine everything session when the type of something changes
2006-06-14T17:11:13 <mitsuhiko> __doc__: bycicle repair man
2006-06-14T17:11:17 <ThomasWaldmann> Maybe we can just agree on that Kepplar's deadline will be one week early because he will need that long to refactor and test everything.
2006-06-14T17:11:19 <Kepplar> refactor on your IDE2?
2006-06-14T17:11:21 <Kepplar> -2
2006-06-14T17:11:29 <__doc__> Kepplar: what's a itrv, quick!
2006-06-14T17:11:36 <__doc__> 1
2006-06-14T17:11:37 <__doc__> 2
2006-06-14T17:11:38 <__doc__> 3
2006-06-14T17:11:39 <__doc__> lost
2006-06-14T17:11:42 <Kepplar> ThomasWaldmann: i have a weeks contingency i think you find =)
2006-06-14T17:11:43 <mitsuhiko> lol
2006-06-14T17:11:51 <Kepplar> item revision
2006-06-14T17:11:56 <xorAxAx> lol
2006-06-14T17:11:57 <Kepplar> this will be documented
2006-06-14T17:12:01 <do3cc> Kepplar: what editor are you using?
2006-06-14T17:12:12 <__doc__> Kepplar: o-ho, "this will be documented" when?
2006-06-14T17:12:19 <mitsuhiko> do3cc: hmm. visual studio i guess
2006-06-14T17:12:20 <Kepplar> im using eric, but ill move to eclipse as soon as that plugin is released
2006-06-14T17:12:25 <mitsuhiko> aah
2006-06-14T17:12:33 <xorAxAx> Kepplar: hmm, it already works with python, doesnt it?
2006-06-14T17:12:36 <do3cc> that plugin? There is a working plugin already
2006-06-14T17:12:38 <mitsuhiko> it is
2006-06-14T17:12:46 <__doc__> Kepplar: what type is an item revision?
2006-06-14T17:12:49 <mitsuhiko> xorAxAx: if you keep clicking on the run gc button :)
2006-06-14T17:12:50 <Kepplar> generic
2006-06-14T17:12:55 <xorAxAx> mitsuhiko: yes, i do :)
2006-06-14T17:13:02 <do3cc> So you have nice code completion, long names are readable trust us as industry code writers
2006-06-14T17:13:05 <__doc__> Kepplar: ahum, very sensible, even for generic types you have prefixes
2006-06-14T17:13:05 <xorAxAx> mitsuhiko: esp. because i have incremental gc
2006-06-14T17:13:12 <__doc__> this is soooo way better then hungarian notation
2006-06-14T17:13:22 <__doc__> it's a nonsaying obscure prefix with no information value whatsoever
2006-06-14T17:13:30 * __doc__ claps his hands in admiration
2006-06-14T17:13:43 <Kepplar> thats because you pretentious twit the code isnt complete nor is my documentation
2006-06-14T17:14:00 <Kepplar> so if i were you i'll take my head of out my own arse and go and do something productive
2006-06-14T17:14:01 <__doc__> Kepplar: your documentation will never be complete, and your code is your best documentation.
2006-06-14T17:14:04 <Kepplar> eof
2006-06-14T17:14:05 <mitsuhiko> xorAxAx: peak + 1
2006-06-14T17:14:12 <__doc__> Kepplar: if your code isn't readable as it is you're a wittless twit
2006-06-14T17:14:30 <xorAxAx> no flaming please
2006-06-14T17:14:33 <richardb> Enough of the name calling.
2006-06-14T17:14:33 <__doc__> ^^
2006-06-14T17:14:40 <xorAxAx> use php and zope channels for that!
2006-06-14T17:14:41 <__doc__> he started name calling
2006-06-14T17:14:46 <mitsuhiko> Kepplar: i'm using moin everyday. i help myself while stopping you to uglify that code :)
2006-06-14T17:14:53 <richardb> Don't care who started. Children.
2006-06-14T17:14:55 <do3cc> he, zope doesnt flame
2006-06-14T17:15:02 * __doc__ runs around the playground
2006-06-14T17:15:11 <__doc__> do3cc: zope does flame when I'm there ^^
2006-06-14T17:15:24 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o xorAxAx
2006-06-14T17:15:40 <xorAxAx> now, little kids, we will have a walk outside. put your jackets and shoes on and have fun :)
2006-06-14T17:16:04 *** Gromit was kicked by xorAxAx (sensei __doc__ birkenfeld)
2006-06-14T17:16:12 *** sensei was kicked by xorAxAx (xorAxAx)
2006-06-14T17:16:17 <mitsuhiko> xorAxAx: ney. nicht ganz ^^
2006-06-14T17:16:18 *** __doc__ was kicked by xorAxAx (xorAxAx)
2006-06-14T17:16:21 *** birkenfeld was kicked by xorAxAx (xorAxAx)
2006-06-14T17:16:23 <xorAxAx> :-)
2006-06-14T17:16:26 *** xorAxAx sets mode: -o xorAxAx
2006-06-14T17:16:27 <mitsuhiko> ^^
2006-06-14T17:16:33 * ThomasWaldmann .oO(und geht alle vorher nochmal auf's Klo [bei Bedarf])
2006-06-14T17:16:38 * mitsuhiko goes cutting logfiles
2006-06-14T17:16:48 <xorAxAx> birkenfeld: hey, you rejoiner :)
2006-06-14T17:16:55 <mitsuhiko> that's germinism
2006-06-14T17:16:59 <birkenfeld> xorAxAx: was war das?
2006-06-14T17:17:24 <mitsuhiko> birkenfeld: looks like qnet
2006-06-14T17:18:12 <xorAxAx> birkenfeld: that was a stop sign :)
2006-06-14T17:18:38 <birkenfeld> xorAxAx: yes, like I was shouting all over the place
2006-06-14T17:19:21 <xorAxAx> birkenfeld: you was just in the set of people that didnt have their reserved seat here. feel free to stay here :)
2006-06-14T18:01:30 <Kepplar> For the record though, I'm not religiously supportive of anything except software architecture, my opinion is formed just when i can't see any justification in a counter-argument of a position ;). Python being a dynamic language needs H.N. far more than others in my opinion. I recognise this as just my opinion here though.
2006-06-14T18:02:27 <xorAxAx> Kepplar: thats ok
2006-06-14T18:03:39 <ThomasWaldmann> fpletz: on what are you currently working?
2006-06-14T18:04:03 <Kepplar> fpletz: = xapian?
2006-06-14T18:04:12 <richardb> A bit more detail? ;-)
2006-06-14T18:04:42 <richardb> ThomasWaldmann: He seems to be absent.
2006-06-14T18:04:47 <ThomasWaldmann> as a general note, I am missing activity in the public repositories.
2006-06-14T18:05:10 <richardb> Regular (at very least daily) commits help mentors not to worry.
2006-06-14T18:05:24 <Kepplar> ill be commiting later :)
2006-06-14T18:05:32 <Kepplar> public rep?
2006-06-14T18:05:40 <ThomasWaldmann> You are expected to work daily and full-time, so the minimum I expect is a CHANGES.xxx entry about what you have been doing, even if it didn't result in a commitable line of code.
2006-06-14T18:06:01 <richardb> Thomas means your personal, but public repo. (I assume).
2006-06-14T18:06:09 <richardb> ie, push stuff.
2006-06-14T18:06:33 <ThomasWaldmann> http://hg.thinkmo.de/moin/1.6-proj-yourname I mean.
2006-06-14T18:07:46 <Kepplar> ah yes
2006-06-14T18:08:52 <ThomasWaldmann> "Please make at least one entry per day (and commit it) about what your work was about."
2006-06-14T18:09:13 <ThomasWaldmann> Most of you didn't care doing that.
2006-06-14T18:09:49 <ThomasWaldmann> I hope you also don't care if your mentor doesn't develop phantasies about what you might have been doing for the reports he has to write.
2006-06-14T18:10:13 * xorAxAx did that on a weekly basis
2006-06-14T18:10:36 <Kepplar> forgot about that file to be honest
2006-06-14T18:10:54 <Kepplar> i think daily is a bit excessive though
2006-06-14T18:12:59 <ThomasWaldmann> I dont think it is exessive to take 5 minutes and write one line of keywords about 8h work you have done.
2006-06-14T18:13:34 <ThomasWaldmann> but see above, it is YOUR project
2006-06-14T18:15:04 <ThomasWaldmann> xorAxAx: don't put a whole week into a single line. It doesn't get rendered in a usable way.
2006-06-14T18:15:11 <ThomasWaldmann> http://hg.thinkmo.de/moin/1.6-sync-aschremmer?f=6741af067e81;file=docs/CHANGES.aschremmer
2006-06-14T18:15:53 <xorAxAx> ThomasWaldmann: i will add some white space
2006-06-14T18:16:01 * Kepplar notes hes working about 3 hours day outside weekend as indicated because of work constraints (finishes this friday)
2006-06-14T18:16:45 <ThomasWaldmann> you can put that also into ypur CHANGES file :)
2006-06-14T18:17:06 <Kepplar> i thought the change file said autogenerated to not touch?
2006-06-14T18:17:13 <Kepplar> do*
2006-06-14T18:19:38 <Kepplar> ill do the change log with the commit tonight
2006-06-14T19:22:04 <mitsuhiko> Kepplar: some nice guys from #pythonpaste want you to read that: http://www.joelonsoftware.com/printerFriendly/articles/Wrong.html
2006-06-14T20:33:03 <Kepplar> mitsuhiko: very good article
2006-06-14T20:33:26 <Kepplar> I have to say I don't use H.N for every language in every case
2006-06-14T21:03:27 <Kepplar> attachment code is in i think
2006-06-14T21:05:38 <Kepplar> but not sure if its sufficiant
2006-06-14T21:05:57 <Kepplar> because of the breakdown or item and item revisions classes, there are issues with attachments
2006-06-14T21:06:05 <Kepplar> well
2006-06-14T21:06:06 <mitsuhiko> Kepplar: which file?
2006-06-14T21:06:06 <Kepplar> sorta
2006-06-14T21:06:29 <Kepplar> I'm not sure if the access layer should have a seperate functionality to store attachments
2006-06-14T21:06:41 <Kepplar> flatfile.py (not uploaded)
2006-06-14T21:07:15 <Kepplar> Basically an item class is a contrainer for multiple item revisions
2006-06-14T21:07:32 <Kepplar> Item revision has functionality that calls the (selected) backend to save to whatever storage
2006-06-14T21:07:38 <Kepplar> however we don't have revisions for attachments
2006-06-14T21:07:50 <Kepplar> which means the container would need functionalities
2006-06-14T21:08:06 <Kepplar> or we treat it as an object with 1 attachment (thus enabling us to do attachment revisions in the future)
2006-06-14T21:08:20 <Kepplar> which actually sounds better
2006-06-14T21:08:21 <Kepplar> hmm
2006-06-14T21:08:41 <Kepplar> but would require a seperate set of code to make it compatible with the current flatfile system
2006-06-14T21:08:54 <mitsuhiko> Kepplar: ping me after push
2006-06-14T21:09:00 <mitsuhiko> want to see the code :)
2006-06-14T21:09:03 <xorAxAx> Kepplar: in the old flatfile system, legacy code will access attachments
2006-06-14T21:09:17 <mvirkkil> /j soc
2006-06-14T21:09:19 <Kepplar> but we wouldnt want this exposed in the interface just because it's legacy.. Either it is in the interface, or we code round it privately
2006-06-14T21:09:21 <xorAxAx> Kepplar: in a second step, a fallback could be implemente
2006-06-14T21:09:36 <Kepplar> the flatfile systems are the same
2006-06-14T21:09:41 <Kepplar> for compatibility
2006-06-14T21:10:02 <Kepplar> maybe a new one is created as another choice for users, but our primary concern is compatibility with the current backend i believe
2006-06-14T21:10:07 <mitsuhiko> xorAxAx: ever had a look at the trac rcs abstraction layer?
2006-06-14T21:10:08 <Kepplar> mitsuhiko: sure
2006-06-14T21:10:27 <xorAxAx> mitsuhiko: no, why?
2006-06-14T21:10:29 <mitsuhiko> i know it's too late but would be nice for moin too
2006-06-14T21:10:37 <xorAxAx> mitsuhiko: for what is it too late?
2006-06-14T21:10:40 <mitsuhiko> xorAxAx: very abstract but nice to work with
2006-06-14T21:10:57 <mitsuhiko> xorAxAx: implementing, Kepplar is working on a different approach
2006-06-14T21:11:09 <Kepplar> hmm?
2006-06-14T21:11:13 <xorAxAx> mitsuhiko: he could be inspired by it
2006-06-14T21:11:21 <Kepplar> what is it?
2006-06-14T21:11:46 <mitsuhiko> xorAxAx: as long as he doesn't want to apply vb naming rules :)
2006-06-14T21:12:10 <mitsuhiko> xorAxAx, Kepplar: http://projects.edgewall.com/trac/browser/trunk/trac/versioncontrol/api.py
2006-06-14T21:12:13 <Kepplar> ive never done vb in my life and never want to :P
2006-06-14T21:12:39 <mitsuhiko> xorAxAx: the idea is nice
2006-06-14T21:13:09 <mitsuhiko> i think a similar approach would be nice to have for moin
2006-06-14T21:13:31 <Kepplar> (just had a quick glance)
2006-06-14T21:13:40 <Kepplar> doesnt look too different to my approach
2006-06-14T21:14:09 <mitsuhiko> s/too/so/ or s/doesnt/does/ ?
2006-06-14T21:14:40 <Kepplar> so or too works
2006-06-14T21:14:55 <Kepplar> Repository is basically the storageProxy class
2006-06-14T21:15:06 <Kepplar> (in which flatfileProxy implments)
2006-06-14T21:15:16 <mitsuhiko> Kepplar: and Node is was?
2006-06-14T21:15:21 <Kepplar> Item?
2006-06-14T21:15:23 <mitsuhiko> s/was/what/
2006-06-14T21:15:50 <Kepplar> Or Item revision
2006-06-14T21:15:55 <Kepplar> depends how you look at it
2006-06-14T21:16:10 <Kepplar> good link though!
2006-06-14T21:17:53 <Kepplar> ::np:: Wolfsheim - Approching Lightspeed
2006-06-14T21:18:14 <mitsuhiko> hehe. german band
2006-06-14T21:18:20 <mitsuhiko> "band"
2006-06-14T21:18:31 <Kepplar> alot of electro-industrial (ebm, darkwave, futurepop) is :)
2006-06-14T21:18:49 <mitsuhiko> i've the album here
2006-06-14T21:18:58 <Kepplar> nice
2006-06-14T21:19:27 <xorAxAx> NP messages go to #moin :)
2006-06-14T21:19:45 <xorAxAx> NP: Charly Antolini - Knock Out
2006-06-14T21:19:56 <xorAxAx> the only track that is known to bust your sound system
2006-06-14T21:23:59 <mitsuhiko> NP: Godsmack - Hollow
2006-06-14T22:00:52 <ThomasWaldmann> do we have some special reason for quote_plus for attachments?
2006-06-14T22:07:45 <xorAxAx> where exactly?
2006-06-14T22:25:28 <ThomasWaldmann> every call to wikiutil.url_quote_plus
2006-06-14T22:25:40 <mitsuhiko> wohooo
2006-06-14T22:25:47 <mitsuhiko> nearly finished :)
2006-06-14T22:28:17 <ThomasWaldmann> what?
2006-06-14T22:29:08 <mitsuhiko> ThomasWaldmann: moin1.5 theme for python.org that doesn't suck :)
2006-06-14T22:29:57 <ThomasWaldmann> it can only get better
2006-06-14T22:30:31 <ThomasWaldmann> just using modern would be too easy I guess X)
2006-06-14T22:31:23 <mitsuhiko> modern sucks
2006-06-14T22:31:28 <xorAxAx> ACK :)
2006-06-14T22:32:33 <ThomasWaldmann> i still have to see a better theme
2006-06-14T23:05:48 <mitsuhiko> wah
2006-06-14T23:06:07 <mitsuhiko> xorAxAx: the whole pydot org webpage is unmaintainable
2006-06-14T23:06:33 <xorAxAx> mitsuhiko: "monolithic" seibel called it today
2006-06-14T23:06:35 <xorAxAx> sdeibel
2006-06-14T23:34:17 <Kepplar> This is not Kepplar - I'd just like to say, i think his code is diabolical :D
2006-06-14T23:35:25 <Kepplar> Nope.. noone goaded into any debate
2006-06-14T23:35:35 <mitsuhiko> Kepplar: his code IS diabolical ^^
2006-06-14T23:35:38 <Kepplar> oh! I know - I'm a VB fan boy
2006-06-14T23:35:42 <mitsuhiko> lol
2006-06-14T23:35:44 <Kepplar> :P
2006-06-14T23:36:20 <Kepplar> Actualy, i find it (Keps) easier to read.
2006-06-14T23:36:31 <Kepplar> As i know exactly NOTHING about python
2006-06-14T23:36:44 <xorAxAx> keps?
2006-06-14T23:36:48 <Kepplar> Kepplar
2006-06-14T23:37:06 <Kepplar> < This guy
2006-06-14T23:37:17 <xorAxAx> ah!
2006-06-14T23:38:20 <Kepplar> Anyway, what other backgrounds u guys have besdes Python?
2006-06-14T23:38:45 <xorAxAx> hey, your code is nice
2006-06-14T23:38:57 <xorAxAx> its just the ungarian notation that looks a bit misplaced :)
2006-06-14T23:40:20 <Kepplar> Is that a python thing? Because everywhere i've worked has insisted on rigid scope/type/name naming conventions
2006-06-14T23:40:45 <Kepplar> Seems to be insustrial standard
2006-06-14T23:40:52 <birkenfeld> Python already has rigid conventions, H.N. doesn't happen to be one of them
2006-06-14T23:41:09 <xorAxAx> according to your CV, you didnt have had much contact with actual coding :)
2006-06-14T23:41:20 <birkenfeld> and I think you know the thing about "industry standards"
2006-06-14T23:41:30 <birkenfeld> no one ever got fired for following "industry standards"
2006-06-14T23:41:37 <Kepplar> This isn't Kepplar
2006-06-14T23:41:39 <Kepplar> i'm his friend
2006-06-14T23:42:01 <birkenfeld> what's your name?
2006-06-14T23:42:10 <xorAxAx> eric?
2006-06-14T23:42:14 <Kepplar> James
2006-06-14T23:42:17 <Kepplar> Bond :P
2006-06-14T23:42:26 <Kepplar> Tris
2006-06-14T23:43:10 <Kepplar> xorAxAx: (kepplar) i worked as software enginner at KITC (just my job title was consultant)
2006-06-14T23:43:50 <Kepplar> (Tris) Heh, my boss took a gamble when he offered me a job, as i had almost no professional experience
2006-06-14T23:43:54 <xorAxAx> Kepplar: i think you agree that others dont write good code as well ...
2006-06-14T23:43:58 <Kepplar> Dropped right in at the deep end :(
2006-06-14T23:44:15 <Kepplar> My bosses code is CRAP
2006-06-14T23:45:00 <xorAxAx> what are you doing tris?
2006-06-14T23:45:13 <Kepplar> i opened up one of his web pages the other day, and he had a single 400 line On_Page_Load function
2006-06-14T23:45:27 <Kepplar> .Net Developer
2006-06-14T23:45:39 <Kepplar> (Laugh away :P)
2006-06-14T23:46:32 <Kepplar> Still i get paid well, love my job, and have free reign to abuse my boss
2006-06-14T23:47:19 <xorAxAx> ah, what are you doing?
2006-06-14T23:47:34 <Kepplar> Websites.
2006-06-14T23:47:56 <Kepplar> I came from a C# application development background and my boss has me Rebuilding VB.Net web apps.
2006-06-14T23:48:20 <xorAxAx> so you should be experienced in hungarian notatio
2006-06-14T23:48:21 <xorAxAx> n
2006-06-14T23:48:26 <Kepplar> I hated it at first (Ok, i STILL hate the syntax.. it's evil)
2006-06-14T23:48:49 <Kepplar> But fundamentaly, it's the same base classes and the underlying logic is identical, so the transition was painless.
2006-06-14T23:48:58 <Kepplar> Yeah, i use HN
2006-06-14T23:49:26 <Kepplar> I didn't even know what it was called, i just kind of figured i needed some kind of naming standard coz my code was messy.
2006-06-14T23:49:52 <xorAxAx> normally you pick it up automatically because everybody is using it
2006-06-14T23:50:24 <Kepplar> Yeah, but i always argue with my boss, coz he uses old 1998 VB standard notation, rather than the .net industrial standard
2006-06-14T23:50:57 <Kepplar> the differences are subtle, but really piss me off
2006-06-14T23:51:57 <mitsuhiko> xorAxAx: HN is good in php
2006-06-14T23:52:05 <xorAxAx> mitsuhiko: why?
2006-06-14T23:52:21 <xorAxAx> because its not strongly typed?
2006-06-14T23:52:26 <Kepplar> Why does python not use HN? Or any other typed naming conventions?
2006-06-14T23:52:38 <mitsuhiko> xorAxAx: nope. because it returns integers where you epect objects
2006-06-14T23:52:44 <xorAxAx> ah
2006-06-14T23:53:01 <xorAxAx> Kepplar: because its too troublesome
2006-06-14T23:53:07 <mitsuhiko> xorAxAx: and that's the original idea behind hn
2006-06-14T23:53:13 <Kepplar> I use HN in JS when i'm doing AJAX stuff
2006-06-14T23:53:54 <Kepplar> Yeah, but in todays world of auto completed code, you can name your variables so that you can find all your global strings without scrolling to the top of the page.
2006-06-14T23:53:59 <xorAxAx> tris, will you come to the soc sprint as well?
2006-06-14T23:54:17 <Kepplar> Alex hasn't heard back from the uni
2006-06-14T23:54:34 <xorAxAx> its not about finding the var name, you should know the type anyway
2006-06-14T23:55:02 <Kepplar> I've got crap memory :P
2006-06-14T23:55:03 <Kepplar> I rely it
2006-06-14T23:55:06 <Kepplar> rely on it
2006-06-14T23:55:34 <Kepplar> I know the type, just can't remember exactly what i called it, other than it's a global string
2006-06-14T23:56:52 <mitsuhiko> hmm
2006-06-14T23:57:04 <mitsuhiko> for example i hate using an ide for python
2006-06-14T23:57:31 <xorAxAx> tris, is your photo in alex' gallery?
2006-06-14T23:57:40 <xorAxAx> would be interested in seeing a face :)
2006-06-14T23:57:53 <Kepplar> Why? I find an IDE (VS in this case) VASTLY increases productivity
2006-06-14T23:58:04 <Kepplar> Uhmm... i'm there
2006-06-14T23:58:26 <birkenfeld> You're right, an IDE (Emacs here) is really important
2006-06-14T23:58:35 <mitsuhiko> birkenfeld: ^^
2006-06-14T23:59:13 <Kepplar> :P
2006-06-14T23:59:21 <mitsuhiko> i don't see vim as an ide but i'm a lot faster than using Eclipse
2006-06-14T23:59:25 <Kepplar> Anyone who says they like to code in notepad needs to be shot :P
2006-06-14T23:59:41 <birkenfeld> Kepplar: ack
2006-06-14T23:59:46 <Kepplar> It's great for showing off, sure
2006-06-14T23:59:54 <Kepplar> but it's not practicle for business
MoinMoin: MoinMoinChat/Logs/moin-dev/2006-06-14 (last edited 2021-02-15 16:39:05 by Bind)
