MoinMoin: MoinMoinChat/Logs/moin-dev/2006-06-28

2006-06-28T11:00:37  <ThomasWaldmann> moin
2006-06-28T11:02:03  <Kepplar> moin
2006-06-28T12:23:46  <mvirkkil> moin
2006-06-28T12:30:01  <Kepplar> moin
2006-06-28T16:21:45  <Kepplar> ThomasWaldmann: you there?
2006-06-28T16:23:06  <Kepplar> Ages ago you told me that you wanted Items to be specialised to mimetypes not revisions - the mimetype would be constant throughout revisions
2006-06-28T16:23:24  <Kepplar> this of course makes sense, as often or not the mimetye (well item type) depends where its saved
2006-06-28T16:23:27  <Kepplar> however
2006-06-28T16:23:32  <Kepplar> the mimetype is just metadata in revisions
2006-06-28T16:23:38  <Kepplar> what happens if it gets overriden
2006-06-28T16:23:43  <Kepplar> in a new revision
2006-06-28T16:23:50  <Kepplar> what happnes to the older ones?
2006-06-28T16:24:18  <ThomasWaldmann> Kepplar: yes
2006-06-28T16:24:26  <Kepplar> would metadata therefore become  related to the item and not the item revision
2006-06-28T16:24:44  <Kepplar> another thing would be ACL, certainly metadata
2006-06-28T16:24:55  <Kepplar> but if tied to the revision would give out of date access to older revision
2006-06-28T16:25:15  <Kepplar> then again not storing it with the revision means you cannot revert changes
2006-06-28T16:25:16  <Kepplar> or
2006-06-28T16:25:22  <Kepplar> it just uses the current versions metadata
2006-06-28T16:25:24  <Kepplar> on all
2006-06-28T16:25:37  <Kepplar> arent attachment links, metadata?
2006-06-28T16:26:12  <ThomasWaldmann> no, i didnt tell you that
2006-06-28T16:27:30  <ThomasWaldmann> and the "mimetype determines where stuff is saved" is only true for 1.5 compatible storage when looking at pages vs. users
2006-06-28T16:27:53  <ThomasWaldmann> of course the mimetype of an item can change from one revision to next
2006-06-28T16:28:13  <ThomasWaldmann> maybe doesnt happen very often, though
2006-06-28T16:29:00  <ThomasWaldmann> metadata is revisioned parallel to the item revisions
2006-06-28T16:29:20  <ThomasWaldmann> you can see that on the wiki pages I gave you twice at least :-P
2006-06-28T16:30:13  <ThomasWaldmann> old revisions never change. neither data, nor meta.
2006-06-28T16:30:47  <ThomasWaldmann> the only change for old stuff is archiving or deletion of data rev + meta rev.
2006-06-28T16:31:43  <ThomasWaldmann> for ACLs you are right. they are metadata, but one needs some trick to get the expected behaviour.
2006-06-28T16:32:17  <ThomasWaldmann> the current code uses ACL metadata of the current item to determine access not only to this revision, but to all revisions.
2006-06-28T16:32:58  <ThomasWaldmann> if the current revision is deleted, it even looks in the last existing revision (n-1) to avoid disclosing data protected by acls.
2006-06-28T16:34:06  <ThomasWaldmann> rephrase your last line, please
2006-06-28T17:17:43  <ThomasWaldmann> Kepplar: still alive? :)
2006-06-28T18:18:46  *** irc.freenode.net sets mode: +o ChanServ
2006-06-28T18:44:36  <xorAxAx> Kepplar: you wont be in geneva, right? then i please delete your name from mthe name list
2006-06-28T20:23:57  <ThomasWaldmann> soc survey deadline seems to be on July, 5th
2006-06-28T20:24:18  <ThomasWaldmann> did they move it some days to that date?
2006-06-28T20:57:40  <mvirkkil> ThomasWaldmann: they moved it
2006-06-28T21:28:19  <ThomasWaldmann> looks like i have to update the system and help pages for 1.5 against my intention
2006-06-28T21:39:15  <Kepplar> ThomasWaldmann: sorry about that
2006-06-28T21:39:23  <Kepplar> ThomasWaldmann: i had a run in with some hot curry
2006-06-28T21:39:56  <Kepplar> my nose is still a bit swolen ><
2006-06-28T21:41:29  <ThomasWaldmann> what's a "run in"?
2006-06-28T21:42:04  <Kepplar> oh english expression when you have an incident with
2006-06-28T21:42:47  <Kepplar> maybe adding the green peppers was a bad idea
2006-06-28T21:42:55  <Kepplar> peppers
2006-06-28T21:42:56  <Kepplar> sorry
2006-06-28T21:42:58  <Kepplar> i mean chillis
2006-06-28T21:48:55  * ThomasWaldmann already wondered. yeah, chilis can be mean.
2006-06-28T22:38:40  <Kepplar> ThomasWaldmann: you there/
2006-06-28T22:38:42  <Kepplar> or anyone
2006-06-28T22:38:48  <Kepplar> generic python question
2006-06-28T22:40:38  <Kepplar> nm
2006-06-28T22:40:41  <Kepplar> question answered
2006-06-28T22:44:52  <ThomasWaldmann> :)
2006-06-28T22:45:52  <Kepplar> its cool what ive come up with :)
2006-06-28T22:45:58  <Kepplar> random question related
2006-06-28T22:46:07  <Kepplar> can i change dynamically the superclass?
2006-06-28T22:46:58  <ThomasWaldmann> i never used that, but i guess yes
2006-06-28T22:47:05  <Kepplar> cool
2006-06-28T22:47:08  <Kepplar> its just
2006-06-28T22:47:11  <Kepplar> all this mimetype stuff
2006-06-28T22:47:21  <Kepplar> inherit from page or underlay item :)
2006-06-28T22:47:37  <Kepplar> to work out the mimetype.. not a good word actually, to work out what type of item it is
2006-06-28T22:47:41  <Kepplar> it has a dictionary
2006-06-28T22:47:54  <Kepplar> which checks (via a split("/"))
2006-06-28T22:47:58  <Kepplar> on the mimetype
2006-06-28T22:48:05  <Kepplar> the first part
2006-06-28T22:48:17  <Kepplar> result that pops out is a dictionary.. which the second in the list is applied to
2006-06-28T22:48:20  <Kepplar> and so on
2006-06-28T22:48:21  <Kepplar> until it finds a Class
2006-06-28T22:48:24  <Kepplar> which it instanises
2006-06-28T22:49:00  <Kepplar> ThomasWaldmann: got an asnwer with the changey bit.. changing __bases__ or something
2006-06-28T22:51:41  <ThomasWaldmann> there is already some iterator yielding potential mimetype-like filenames
2006-06-28T22:51:56  <ThomasWaldmann> from long to short
2006-06-28T22:51:56  <Kepplar> ?
2006-06-28T22:52:25  <ThomasWaldmann> but I guess we can also hardcode this, we wont have THAT much classes
2006-06-28T22:52:32  <ThomasWaldmann> at least not soon
2006-06-28T22:52:40  <Kepplar> what iterator? in moin?
2006-06-28T22:52:54  <Kepplar> it not strictly hard coded
2006-06-28T22:53:06  <Kepplar> the constructor for the ItemRevisionBuilder now takes a dictionary
2006-06-28T22:53:15  <Kepplar> if it recieves none it uses the hard coded one
2006-06-28T22:53:19  <Kepplar> so technically its overridable
2006-06-28T22:54:25  <ThomasWaldmann> it is MimeType.module_name(), see wikiutil
2006-06-28T22:54:49  <Kepplar> cool
2006-06-28T22:54:59  <Kepplar> i only say the if jobbie on 2.0's item.py
2006-06-28T22:55:56  <Kepplar> ThomasWaldmann: http://rafb.net/paste/results/K3suSE33.html
2006-06-28T22:56:13  <ThomasWaldmann> maybe you want to have a similar function for ClassNames
2006-06-28T22:57:42  <Kepplar> ok
2006-06-28T22:57:47  <Kepplar> (look at in a sec)
2006-06-28T22:57:48  <Kepplar> btw
2006-06-28T22:57:50  <Kepplar> Underlay
2006-06-28T22:57:59  <Kepplar> is that legacy or do you forsee other engine types needing it
2006-06-28T22:58:06  <Kepplar> aka, is it implimentation or abstraction layer?
2006-06-28T23:02:37  <ThomasWaldmann> we use it for system and help pages
2006-06-28T23:02:47  <Kepplar> i know
2006-06-28T23:03:00  <Kepplar> is it important though to define it a seperate from data?
2006-06-28T23:03:07  <ThomasWaldmann> maybe not necessary after finding a better way
2006-06-28T23:03:20  <ThomasWaldmann> otoh some people already requested more layers :)
2006-06-28T23:03:50  <Kepplar> out of scope, dont want to complex things, we'll leave undelay in
2006-06-28T23:04:21  <ThomasWaldmann> dont waste too much time on underlay
2006-06-28T23:04:28  <ThomasWaldmann> it is throw-away data
2006-06-28T23:04:42  <ThomasWaldmann> and maybe we just use a different mimetype in future
2006-06-28T23:06:07  <xorAxAx> ThomasWaldmann: expected release date?
2006-06-28T23:06:55  <Kepplar> yea
2006-06-28T23:07:02  <Kepplar> except undelay stuff could be of many mimetypes
2006-06-28T23:07:06  <Kepplar> dony worry ive sorted it
2006-06-28T23:07:14  <Kepplar> thanks to dynamic superclasses :)
2006-06-28T23:12:12  <ThomasWaldmann> xorAxAx: of 1.5.4 or what?
2006-06-28T23:12:31  <xorAxAx> ThomasWaldmann: yes
2006-06-28T23:12:45  <ThomasWaldmann> friday or saturday
2006-06-28T23:12:59  <xorAxAx> ok
2006-06-28T23:13:16  <mvirkkil> ThomasWaldmann: I've got a small dilemma: I've found a workaround for the old Include macro, but I've also created a new Insert-macro which has mostly the same features.
2006-06-28T23:13:35  <ThomasWaldmann> heh
2006-06-28T23:14:19  <mvirkkil> ThomasWaldmann: The insert macro is a bit more structures, and results in a faster include on the docbook formatter. It doesn't count titles, but supports from= and to= args.
2006-06-28T23:15:05  <xorAxAx> mvirkkil: and it supports all other things? if the strategy is more clear, than its the way to go
2006-06-28T23:15:56  <mvirkkil> xorAxAx: It doesn't support automagically creating a header linked to the page, cause I can't figure out why anyone would want to use that... It could be added though.
2006-06-28T23:16:43  <xorAxAx> header means what?
2006-06-28T23:16:45  <xorAxAx> TOC?
2006-06-28T23:16:47  <mvirkkil> But it does prevent recursive includes, it supports sort and items. And the pagename can be a regex of pages etc..
2006-06-28T23:17:09  <mvirkkil> xorAxAx: No. The Include macro has an option of creating a header instead of including the page.
2006-06-28T23:17:26  <ThomasWaldmann> if it is named different, we can have them both for a while for testing
2006-06-28T23:17:26  <mvirkkil> And the header will be linked to the page instead.
2006-06-28T23:17:38  <mvirkkil> ThomasWaldmann: Yeah. That's what I though.
2006-06-28T23:18:10  <mvirkkil> ThomasWaldmann: I'll commit that, and some other changes on saturday. I'll make them separate commits for easy separation.
2006-06-28T23:19:24  <mvirkkil> Oh, and there is one unexpected limitation: a regexp used in from= or to= _cannot_ contain a comma :/ It's caused by the way I'm parsing the args.
2006-06-28T23:20:43  <xorAxAx> that was possible before?
2006-06-28T23:21:02  <mvirkkil> xorAxAx: Not sure. Possibly because of the weird regexps used for parsing args.
2006-06-28T23:22:04  <xorAxAx> LOL
2006-06-28T23:22:07  <xorAxAx> just try it :)
2006-06-28T23:22:58  <mvirkkil> I added some "wiki-candy": It now prints the way which the includes happen, that cause the recursion. So if you have a complex inclusion structure you can see the route like -->OnePage-->SecondPage-->ThirdPage-->NameOfThisPage
2006-06-28T23:24:58  <mvirkkil> xorAxAx: Yeah.. Commas don't confuse the Include macro.
2006-06-28T23:26:03  <mvirkkil> xorAxAx: I could add a hack..  But it wouldn't prevent cases where you have a regex containing a \"
2006-06-28T23:26:45  <xorAxAx> mvirkkil: just use the deescaper from MoinMoin.packages
2006-06-28T23:26:46  <mvirkkil> xorAxAx: I prefer to keep it simple and predictable :)
2006-06-28T23:26:50  <xorAxAx> it will solve it for you
2006-06-28T23:26:59  <mvirkkil> ok...
2006-06-28T23:27:56  <mvirkkil> xorAxAx: No, I don'
2006-06-28T23:28:01  <mvirkkil> xorAxAx: No, I don't think it would.
2006-06-28T23:28:10  <mvirkkil> Because the " would still be the problem.
2006-06-28T23:28:24  <mvirkkil> I would just be looking for the next " instead of the next ,
2006-06-28T23:28:40  <xorAxAx> what is " here?
2006-06-28T23:28:46  <xorAxAx> the macro looks for quoted strins?
2006-06-28T23:29:01  <mvirkkil> xorAxAx: No, I mean when I'm parsing args...
2006-06-28T23:29:08  <mvirkkil> Wait. I'll give you an example.
2006-06-28T23:29:33  <mvirkkil> Inser(NameOfPage, from="Hello,george", to="end")
2006-06-28T23:30:05  <mvirkkil> Inser(NameOfPage, from="Hello, is this a "d" oor not?", to="end")
2006-06-28T23:30:20  <mvirkkil> ...grumble, bad regexp...
2006-06-28T23:30:38  <xorAxAx> oh, it enforces quoted args?
2006-06-28T23:30:42  <xorAxAx> then you need another scanner
2006-06-28T23:31:06  <mvirkkil> xorAxAx: I like the idea of just splitting it at commas, and then splitting again at the first =
2006-06-28T23:31:32  <mvirkkil> This will work for anything, absolutely _anything_ that doesn't contain a comma.
2006-06-28T23:31:45  <xorAxAx> =?
2006-06-28T23:32:12  <mvirkkil> xorAxAx: Since it only splits the first =, and we know no keywords has a =, it's not a problem :)
2006-06-28T23:33:00  <mvirkkil> from="false=not" will result in a dictionary { "from":"false=not" }
2006-06-28T23:33:09  <xorAxAx> and why dont you use the other regex? :)
2006-06-28T23:33:19  <mvirkkil> xorAxAx: What regex?
2006-06-28T23:33:29  <Kepplar> dudes
2006-06-28T23:33:34  <Kepplar> check out the latest commit from -storage
2006-06-28T23:33:43  <xorAxAx> mvirkkil: the old one
2006-06-28T23:34:12  <Kepplar> er
2006-06-28T23:34:16  <Kepplar> found  a mistake hold on
2006-06-28T23:34:40  <mvirkkil> xorAxAx: Because I don't understand it, and it cannot handle any sort of quotes.
2006-06-28T23:35:04  <mvirkkil> xorAxAx: It would just make it more comlpex, and exchange one limitation for another.
2006-06-28T23:36:04  <xorAxAx> good point
2006-06-28T23:37:04  <mvirkkil> xorAxAx: Hmm.. It might be able to handle \" I
2006-06-28T23:37:06  <mvirkkil> I
2006-06-28T23:37:09  <mvirkkil> argh...
2006-06-28T23:37:12  <mvirkkil> I'm not sure.
2006-06-28T23:37:19  <xorAxAx> just feed it :)
2006-06-28T23:37:38  <mvirkkil> xorAxAx: I could.. but... argh.. Ok.
2006-06-28T23:38:55  <mvirkkil> Crap. It doesn't have that limitation :/
2006-06-28T23:39:13  <mvirkkil> I guess I have to work around it in my Insert macro :/
2006-06-28T23:39:47  <xorAxAx> jürgen could write nice regexes :)
2006-06-28T23:42:43  <ThomasWaldmann> mvirkkil: btw, there are at least 2 arg parsers in moin
2006-06-28T23:43:39  <mvirkkil> ThomasWaldmann: Where?
2006-06-28T23:43:52  <ThomasWaldmann> iirc in wikiutil.py
2006-06-28T23:45:51  * mvirkkil looking
2006-06-28T23:46:14  <mvirkkil> yup..
2006-06-28T23:46:33  <mvirkkil> I'll use one of those. Let's see if it covers my needs.
2006-06-28T23:46:45  <AndrewSmart> hi folks
2006-06-28T23:47:37  <AndrewSmart> I'm interested to add some new features to moinmoin
2006-06-28T23:48:43  <AndrewSmart> I would like to talk to you to check the basics how contributions can be made
2006-06-28T23:48:57  <AndrewSmart> since I'll pay two developers for adding those features
2006-06-28T23:49:12  <xorAxAx> no, there are 3
2006-06-28T23:49:21  <AndrewSmart> 3?
2006-06-28T23:49:30  <xorAxAx> AndrewSmart: oops, didnt mean you
2006-06-28T23:49:35  <AndrewSmart> :-)
2006-06-28T23:49:35  <mvirkkil> wow.. festi has really put some effort in to that parsing..
2006-06-28T23:49:43  <xorAxAx> mvirkkil: one of those 3 doesnt work
2006-06-28T23:49:55  <mvirkkil> xorAxAx: Which?
2006-06-28T23:50:00  <mvirkkil> AndrewSmart: What features?
2006-06-28T23:50:03  <xorAxAx> AndrewSmart: sounds good. can you describe the kind of features?
2006-06-28T23:50:14  <xorAxAx> mvirkkil: that's to be found out :)
2006-06-28T23:50:16  <AndrewSmart> some of them had already been discussed
2006-06-28T23:50:29  <AndrewSmart> first: meta data in combination with web based forms
2006-06-28T23:50:33  <AndrewSmart> quite like twiki does
2006-06-28T23:50:36  <xorAxAx> AndrewSmart: thats nice, to have some discussion beforehand
2006-06-28T23:50:48  <xorAxAx> but its often not necessary
2006-06-28T23:50:53  <AndrewSmart> I did a lots of interesting stuff with twiki, by the way
2006-06-28T23:50:57  <xorAxAx> because money is seldom spent on useless features :)
2006-06-28T23:51:09  <xorAxAx> yeah, twiki was financed by many companies
2006-06-28T23:51:13  * mvirkkil would like to use dublin core for metadata :)
2006-06-28T23:51:42  <mvirkkil> AndrewSmart: the other features?
2006-06-28T23:51:48  <ThomasWaldmann> AndrewSmart: talk to ffesti about the forms stuff
2006-06-28T23:51:56  <AndrewSmart> secondly: I have specific setup with various wikis - used by myself alone, and some used by other peoples
2006-06-28T23:52:05  <AndrewSmart> I need some advanced sync'ing
2006-06-28T23:52:24  <AndrewSmart> third: I would like to see some enhanced handling of wiki-farms - especially:
2006-06-28T23:52:34  <AndrewSmart> - common user/rights settings for a whole farm
2006-06-28T23:52:39  <AndrewSmart> - linking between pages
2006-06-28T23:52:50  <AndrewSmart> - linking between pages of various wikis
2006-06-28T23:52:59  <xorAxAx> AndrewSmart: hehe, syncing is my task currently
2006-06-28T23:53:05  <ThomasWaldmann> common user/rights is already there
2006-06-28T23:53:07  <xorAxAx> at least i will provide a basic framework
2006-06-28T23:53:23  <ThomasWaldmann> linking also
2006-06-28T23:53:24  <AndrewSmart> cool - my dev's are in need to have some input for basic effort estimation
2006-06-28T23:53:28  <xorAxAx> if there are some "cooperate" features missing, those could be added
2006-06-28T23:54:15  <ThomasWaldmann> AndrewSmart: maybe you could setup some featurerequest pages
2006-06-28T23:54:24  <AndrewSmart> if you have already a basic setup and you are willing to guide my dev's  - I would like to see some spec... if it fits my needs you could get some developers time :-)
2006-06-28T23:54:26  <ThomasWaldmann> just as a discussion place
2006-06-28T23:54:39  <AndrewSmart> I'll do - i just wanted to check with you before
2006-06-28T23:55:08  <ThomasWaldmann> user_dir = ... in farmconfig = common users
2006-06-28T23:55:36  <ThomasWaldmann> acl_* in farmconfig = common rights by config
2006-06-28T23:55:43  <AndrewSmart> my two guys are ukrainian - I'm a pythonic ex-dev business man in Germany
2006-06-28T23:55:57  <mvirkkil> AndrewSmart: Linking between wikis is handled by interwikilinks, I think.
2006-06-28T23:56:08  <mvirkkil> AndrewSmart: So that should already work.
2006-06-28T23:56:17  <ThomasWaldmann> AndrewSmart: did you check their code already?
2006-06-28T23:56:20  <AndrewSmart> their english lack sometimes - but they understand quite good, and they are very experienced in Python
2006-06-28T23:56:47  * ThomasWaldmann has seen some rather strange ukrainian py code today
2006-06-28T23:56:48  <AndrewSmart> thomas & mvirkkil: I'll check the input for common wikifarm configs
2006-06-28T23:56:52  <AndrewSmart> :-)
2006-06-28T23:57:19  <AndrewSmart> oh, I can send you examples from other projects - did look quite good
2006-06-28T23:57:41  <AndrewSmart> AFAIK of course :-)
2006-06-28T23:58:07  <ThomasWaldmann> AndrewSmart: do you run separate wikis with separate users now?
2006-06-28T23:58:36  <ThomasWaldmann> if yes, you maybe want to have some nice merge script
2006-06-28T23:58:37  <AndrewSmart> I did some experimenting for my self - and I did a example setup on a webspace
2006-06-28T23:58:50  <AndrewSmart> not lot of user config setup up to now
2006-06-28T23:59:11  <AndrewSmart> I'm still in learning phase
2006-06-28T23:59:32  <xorAxAx> ThomasWaldmann: merge?
2006-06-28T23:59:39  <AndrewSmart> it took me quite a lot of thinking to leave twiki and choose to go to moinmoin
2006-06-28T23:59:41  <xorAxAx> ah, merging user dirs