MoinMoin: MoinMoinChat/Logs/moin-dev/2009-04-03

2009-04-03T00:01:17  <dennda> cbx33: just adding some new todos to my application
2009-04-03T00:11:49  <cbx33> nice
2009-04-03T00:21:55  <dennda> that melange editor is crap
2009-04-03T00:22:03  <dennda> at least it has some serious usability flaws
2009-04-03T00:24:40  <dennda> cbx33: you can take a look at it if you want
2009-04-03T00:25:05  <cbx33> maybe tomorrow
2009-04-03T00:25:09  <cbx33> gotta do some work for hte missus
2009-04-03T00:25:25  <dennda> I just made it look a bit nicer by using the editor features and adding the Layer Middleware and the "things that would be nice" tasks
2009-04-03T00:25:29  <dennda> ok sure
2009-04-03T00:25:40  <dennda> nothing complicated
2009-04-03T00:25:57  <dennda> and that fcking editor just didn't save half of what I did style-wise
2009-04-03T00:26:05  <dennda> ok, you'll have to live with it ;)
2009-04-03T00:27:58  <dennda> Just the timetable is still missing
2009-04-03T01:21:31  <cbx33> ok
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2009-04-03T08:48:54  <ThomasWaldmann>   moin
2009-04-03T08:49:33  <dreimark> moin
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2009-04-03T09:44:11  <devilsadvocate> ThomasWaldmann, i've edited the proposal on the google thing, i am copying the changes onto the wiki page now
2009-04-03T09:44:28  <devilsadvocate> may i take this opportunity to say that melange sucks big time?
2009-04-03T09:49:19  <ThomasWaldmann> maybe some encouraging feedback to the melange authors would be good :)
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2009-04-03T09:50:39  <ThomasWaldmann> btw, i cleaned up the ideas page, adding /!\ to the important projects that lack applications and removing that longish bzr/git backend suggestion/discussion (falls under "more backends")
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2009-04-03T09:57:47  * devilsadvocate is trying to figure out whether all the changes he made are actually reflected in the public view
2009-04-03T09:59:26  <ThomasWaldmann> devilsadvocate: what changes?
2009-04-03T09:59:53  <devilsadvocate> ThomasWaldmann, i made changes according to what we discussed yesterday
2009-04-03T10:00:00  <devilsadvocate> and a few other minor edits
2009-04-03T10:00:08  <devilsadvocate> i'm making the changes on the wiki now
2009-04-03T10:00:09  <ThomasWaldmann> socapp or wikipage
2009-04-03T10:00:23  <devilsadvocate> i should have made the changes on wikipage first :(
2009-04-03T10:02:11  <ThomasWaldmann> the socapp iirc only shows the result if you edit the application
2009-04-03T10:04:11  <devilsadvocate> i edited and then saved
2009-04-03T10:04:19  <devilsadvocate> i think its updated now
2009-04-03T10:04:21  <ThomasWaldmann> devilsadvocate: how do you want to use wsgi for iis?
2009-04-03T10:04:29  <devilsadvocate> possibly some cache related issue
2009-04-03T10:04:45  <devilsadvocate> ThomasWaldmann, i have no idea yet. i have a couple of tabs open with google searches.
2009-04-03T10:05:34  <devilsadvocate> http://code.google.com/p/isapi-wsgi/
2009-04-03T10:05:47  <devilsadvocate> i have no idea if this actually works, but it exists in principle :/
2009-04-03T10:07:10  <devilsadvocate> after what you said yesterday i felt it would be somewhat safer to do this than tempt fate with python cgi
2009-04-03T10:07:15  <devilsadvocate> on iis
2009-04-03T10:08:40  <ThomasWaldmann> devilsadvocate: we do not distribute that (yet), so the only thing that currently works for iis is cgi (and maybe some sort of reverse proxy setup in case iis can do that)
2009-04-03T10:09:15  <ThomasWaldmann> devilsadvocate: upgradation < reads strange
2009-04-03T10:10:10  <devilsadvocate> changed to process of upgrading :)
2009-04-03T10:14:15  <devilsadvocate> ThomasWaldmann, I think the isapi extentions are something like the mod_* on apache for iis... we dont ship mod_wsgi either, right?
2009-04-03T10:15:20  <devilsadvocate> so if the extension is installed into the webserver, then iis+isapi_wsgi will be like one blob to us, which can handle wsgi applications like moin
2009-04-03T10:15:22  <ThomasWaldmann> right
2009-04-03T10:15:26  <devilsadvocate> that is how i understand this
2009-04-03T10:15:55  <ThomasWaldmann> about the php/python script for bootstrap
2009-04-03T10:16:22  <ThomasWaldmann> if possible (I am no php guy), this should be done so that the amount of php code is minimal
2009-04-03T10:16:58  <devilsadvocate> it wont be much. all the hard work will be done by the python backend. the php thing will just have to get a very small amount of information and send it along
2009-04-03T10:17:24  <ThomasWaldmann> so my idea would be that the php code just finds out where the python interpreter is and starts some python process
2009-04-03T10:17:25  <devilsadvocate> and in any case, there will be a python version of it as well (which will be made first)
2009-04-03T10:17:58  <ThomasWaldmann> i don't want 2 versions of the same code
2009-04-03T10:18:01  <devilsadvocate> i'm not sure how i can get the python process to generate html, and push it to php
2009-04-03T10:18:32  <devilsadvocate> its possible, though, as far as i can tell
2009-04-03T10:18:37  <devilsadvocate> never had to do it before
2009-04-03T10:19:08  <ThomasWaldmann> maybe find out if php can spawn a background process and community with its stdin/stdout
2009-04-03T10:19:13  <devilsadvocate> oh wait. php as a reverse proxy, and a small python webserver to generate html
2009-04-03T10:19:27  <devilsadvocate> there are php reverse proxies available
2009-04-03T10:19:33  <ThomasWaldmann> or via xmlrpc over some socket or so
2009-04-03T10:20:39  <ThomasWaldmann> or via http, right, then you could create a wsgi installer app and just use the minimal wsgi server from werkzeug for the bootstrapping
2009-04-03T10:21:01  <ThomasWaldmann> or wsgiref
2009-04-03T10:21:43  <devilsadvocate> yeah
2009-04-03T10:22:35  <dreimark> :)
2009-04-03T10:22:38  <ThomasWaldmann> btw, some download feature would be nice for the installer
2009-04-03T10:23:11  <devilsadvocate> as in, download moin from web?
2009-04-03T10:23:23  <ThomasWaldmann> yes, from our download site
2009-04-03T10:23:48  <ThomasWaldmann> uploading via a slow upstream isn't that great
2009-04-03T10:24:12  <devilsadvocate> that can be done, yes
2009-04-03T10:24:40  <ThomasWaldmann> so, bootstrapping could work like this:
2009-04-03T10:25:00  <ThomasWaldmann> upload moin_bootstrap.php to your site and execute it
2009-04-03T10:25:48  <ThomasWaldmann> it will fetch moin_installer.py and execute it
2009-04-03T10:26:00  <devilsadvocate> i can do that
2009-04-03T10:26:05  <ThomasWaldmann> moin_installer will fetch and install the rest
2009-04-03T10:26:10  <devilsadvocate> but im still not sure how to handle user permissions
2009-04-03T10:26:30  <devilsadvocate> as in, installing wsgi needs some root access
2009-04-03T10:26:48  <ThomasWaldmann> if the stuff does not run as root (it usually doesn't), there is no way to modify main server configs.
2009-04-03T10:27:03  <devilsadvocate> exactly
2009-04-03T10:27:18  <ThomasWaldmann> so, find out what can be done via .htaccess and similar files (for apache)
2009-04-03T10:27:46  <devilsadvocate> so it'll have to go some of the way, halt and tell the user to go edit the web server conf / run some script it generated as root, and then resume the install process
2009-04-03T10:27:58  <TheSheep> hello!
2009-04-03T10:28:03  <ThomasWaldmann> btw, for 1.9 there is one item less to care about: you don't need an Alias for static files
2009-04-03T10:28:05  <TheSheep> this is Czarny, your Mentor in waiting
2009-04-03T10:28:23  <devilsadvocate> hi TheSheep . this is Shashank
2009-04-03T10:28:31  <TheSheep> the person on right o this text tells me,that I'm suposed to teach s/b docbook in moin?
2009-04-03T10:28:37  <ThomasWaldmann> TheSheep: so you are camouflaging as TheSheep now?
2009-04-03T10:28:44  <TheSheep> yes
2009-04-03T10:28:56  <TheSheep> I can take different forms ;p
2009-04-03T10:29:03  <TheSheep> he's sitting right beside btw
2009-04-03T10:29:19  <TheSheep> ThomasWaldmann: so what is the deal with this me being a GSCO mentor?
2009-04-03T10:29:39  <ThomasWaldmann> TheSheep: well, if you could mentor docbook stuff, maybe remove those "mentor = ??" notes besides the docbook projects
2009-04-03T10:30:01  <TheSheep> well I could
2009-04-03T10:30:14  <TheSheep> but I'd need to know what does mentoring mean
2009-04-03T10:30:14  <ThomasWaldmann> we don't have applications yet for that, but that is maybe just due to this mentoring thing
2009-04-03T10:30:20  <TheSheep> what am I supposed to do?
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2009-04-03T10:31:08  <ThomasWaldmann> you are required to do the midterm and final evals of the student, you should support the student if he/she has questions and provide some guidance
2009-04-03T10:31:32  <TheSheep> so like goldfish? :)
2009-04-03T10:31:53  <ThomasWaldmann> i don't have a goldfish :)
2009-04-03T10:31:55  <TheSheep> I can do that, I had a goldfish once ;p
2009-04-03T10:32:31  <ThomasWaldmann> and of course you should have more clue in the field you mentor than your student :D
2009-04-03T10:32:53  <TheSheep> well I do docbook a lot as a user
2009-04-03T10:32:57  <TheSheep> I do python as a developper
2009-04-03T10:33:03  <TheSheep> but I'm no moin developer
2009-04-03T10:33:06  <ThomasWaldmann> except for cases when student does not need mentoring, then this is not needed :)
2009-04-03T10:33:11  <TheSheep> although I know someone who could help me
2009-04-03T10:33:49  <ThomasWaldmann> well, it currently looks like we have 6 mentors and 3-4 applications
2009-04-03T10:33:52  <TheSheep> ok, so what are the formalities?
2009-04-03T10:34:07  <TheSheep> what do I need to do?
2009-04-03T10:34:11  <ThomasWaldmann> you need to register yourself in the gsoc app and apply as mentor
2009-04-03T10:34:16  <TheSheep> and when do whe drink, we "Mentors"? :)
2009-04-03T10:34:29  <ThomasWaldmann> http://socghop.appspot.com/org/home/google/gsoc2009/moin
2009-04-03T10:34:41  <ThomasWaldmann> TheSheep: at europython :)
2009-04-03T10:35:19  <TheSheep> that makes me an abstinet like what -- 3 months? :)
2009-04-03T10:35:31  <TheSheep> ok -- sheep is going to work
2009-04-03T10:35:38  <TheSheep> can I enter this channel on my own?
2009-04-03T10:36:33  <TheSheep> ok, so I'm off to fire my own computer
2009-04-03T10:36:34  <TheSheep> brb
2009-04-03T10:38:58  <ThomasWaldmann> brb
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2009-04-03T10:44:56  <czarny> ehllo!
2009-04-03T10:45:02  <czarny> TheSheep has left the room
2009-04-03T10:45:05  <czarny> literally
2009-04-03T10:45:06  <dreimark> hi czarny
2009-04-03T10:45:19  <czarny> hi! :)
2009-04-03T10:45:42  <czarny> so I'm going ahead and registering myself in this google ap
2009-04-03T10:45:43  <dreimark> please replace docbook mentor = ??  at http://moinmo.in/GoogleSoc2009/InitialProjectIdeas
2009-04-03T10:47:23  <czarny> oh --- so you *need* to have to have a gmail account to aprticipate/
2009-04-03T10:47:27  <czarny> how convienient
2009-04-03T10:47:58  <czarny> sow is my mail and my calendars and chats taken innto account when applying? :)
2009-04-03T10:50:20  <czarny> damn usa ppl -- it's not 8:48, its 10:50! :P
2009-04-03T10:51:54  <czarny> should I add myself to the docbook equation, or just delete this? I don't se nobody adding themselves...
2009-04-03T10:54:17  <czarny> done
2009-04-03T10:55:06  <dreimark> add yourself
2009-04-03T10:55:23  <czarny> well I've done it
2009-04-03T10:55:32  <dreimark> please login to MM because of some acls
2009-04-03T10:55:48  <dreimark> thomas can set then to your name
2009-04-03T10:57:14  <ThomasWaldmann> czarny: stating you can mentor docbook is good because noone else can :)
2009-04-03T10:57:33  <czarny> YES! -- the winning pick-up line
2009-04-03T10:57:39  <czarny> "Hey baby, I know docbook!" :)
2009-04-03T10:57:42  <ThomasWaldmann> for the moin coding stuff, there are lots of people around who can help
2009-04-03T10:57:50  <dreimark> now we need a student willing to work with us on that stuff
2009-04-03T10:58:13  <ThomasWaldmann> czarny: btw, what i forgot: mentors should also keep an eye on the students code and help testing it
2009-04-03T10:58:48  <czarny> rajt...well, now it's official, so yes captin, I'm all yours to babysit students :)
2009-04-03T10:58:48  <dreimark> czarny: real tests of yourse besides of checking their unit tests too
2009-04-03T10:58:56  <czarny> since that's mailny what I do in my dayjob, I'll manage
2009-04-03T10:59:24  <czarny> so this is the first time my "boss" actually wants me to write tests?
2009-04-03T10:59:26  <czarny> I'm all in
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2009-04-03T11:08:59  <czarny> re
2009-04-03T11:09:06  <czarny> damn this Snak strange irc client
2009-04-03T11:09:08  <czarny> nevermind
2009-04-03T11:09:24  <czarny> ThomasWaldmann: I've accepted your request and I think I'm officialy a MoinMoin mentor?
2009-04-03T11:09:52  <czarny> I had to fill a strange form where they didn't allowed anythink else then ASCII letters, which is sad because makes my surname awful
2009-04-03T11:11:50  <ThomasWaldmann> yeah, that is real american software :P
2009-04-03T11:12:23  <czarny> that's strange, since Google hires tons of non-americans
2009-04-03T11:12:44  <ThomasWaldmann> czarny: yeah, you are listed as mentor now
2009-04-03T11:12:46  <czarny> and If I had to make a guess I'd say that's more then the half of their workforce
2009-04-03T11:13:54  <czarny> ThomasWaldmann: why did I have to use name''''''surname in MM ?
2009-04-03T11:13:57  <czarny> it looks strange ;/
2009-04-03T11:14:14  <ThomasWaldmann> why did you have to?
2009-04-03T11:14:20  <czarny> there was a text on the left
2009-04-03T11:14:25  <czarny> saying "please use name''''''surname"
2009-04-03T11:14:34  <czarny> w8, make that a right instead a left :)
2009-04-03T11:15:14  <czarny> (Użyj postaci Imię''''''Nazwisko)
2009-04-03T11:15:31  <czarny> which translates to polish "use the form Name"'"'Surname)
2009-04-03T11:16:48  <ThomasWaldmann> czarny: looks like a i18n error, should be FirstnameLastname
2009-04-03T11:17:00  <czarny> ok, I've reedited that in my preferences
2009-04-03T11:17:11  <ThomasWaldmann> master18.moinmo.in/MoinI18n/pl
2009-04-03T11:17:19  <ThomasWaldmann> gtg/brb
2009-04-03T11:17:32  <ThomasWaldmann> (and maybe same on master19...)
2009-04-03T11:18:59  <czarny> yup, error, can I edit this? (no edit button)
2009-04-03T11:29:29  <dreimark> yeah log in read EditingOnMoinMaster on MM
2009-04-03T11:29:39  <dreimark>  lunch
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2009-04-03T12:46:58  <devilsadvocate> ThomasWaldmann, do you think i should make a proposal out of my other idea as well?
2009-04-03T12:47:18  <devilsadvocate> as in, if that seems to be more useful for moin, i could just as well work on that
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2009-04-03T13:20:04  <dennda> devilsadvocate: Did you already apply?
2009-04-03T13:20:24  <devilsadvocate> dennda, yes
2009-04-03T13:20:56  <devilsadvocate> i submitted the application yesterday, sometime
2009-04-03T13:21:02  <dennda> devilsadvocate: For...?
2009-04-03T13:21:03  <devilsadvocate> made a few changes earlier today
2009-04-03T13:21:14  <devilsadvocate> a moin installer and administration ui
2009-04-03T13:21:17  <dennda> ic
2009-04-03T13:21:35  <dennda> devilsadvocate: What is your other idea?
2009-04-03T13:21:53  <devilsadvocate> http://moinmo.in/ChintalagiriShashank
2009-04-03T13:22:11  <devilsadvocate> the first one there... its a pretty crude thing so far
2009-04-03T13:22:30  <devilsadvocate> probably will need a few hours of work to fill it out
2009-04-03T13:22:31  <dennda> Storage of files as attachments?
2009-04-03T13:22:55  <devilsadvocate> sort of
2009-04-03T13:23:02  <dennda> ic
2009-04-03T13:23:06  <dennda> so something storage related
2009-04-03T13:23:08  <devilsadvocate> the files wouldnt be stored on the wiki
2009-04-03T13:23:21  <devilsadvocate> but linked to an external system, preferably a vcs
2009-04-03T13:23:27  <dennda> devilsadvocate: The plan is to kill AttachFile and store those files using the new storage layer
2009-04-03T13:23:48  <devilsadvocate> and then let the files act just like any text on the page
2009-04-03T13:23:50  <dennda> devilsadvocate: The code for that is already there, one just needs to throw out AttachFile and use the already existing code
2009-04-03T13:23:58  <dennda> (the storage code)
2009-04-03T13:24:02  <devilsadvocate> diffs can pull changelogs from the vcs, etc
2009-04-03T13:24:07  <dennda> the attachfile thing is, as far as I know, completely untouched
2009-04-03T13:24:08  <devilsadvocate> hmm
2009-04-03T13:24:39  <devilsadvocate> there are a few things listed there, it wasnt just storage
2009-04-03T13:24:46  <dennda> devilsadvocate: If you are interested in storage, I can give you a bunch of other ideas that need to be done, if ThomasWaldmann agrees.
2009-04-03T13:24:59  <dennda> sure
2009-04-03T13:25:07  <devilsadvocate> the idea was to enhance the usability from a non-software project's perspective
2009-04-03T13:25:09  <dennda> just saying, *if* you are interested in storage, let me know ;)
2009-04-03T13:25:13  <devilsadvocate> :)
2009-04-03T13:25:42  <devilsadvocate> i was under the impression you are applying this year as well
2009-04-03T13:25:46  <dennda> I am
2009-04-03T13:26:16  <dennda> But storage is the number one thing that's going into 2.0 and I wouldn't mind getting help
2009-04-03T13:26:43  <devilsadvocate> i'm interested in working on it. i just left the application off for a bit too long, i suppose
2009-04-03T13:26:56  <dennda> ok
2009-04-03T13:27:09  <devilsadvocate> let me see if i can turn that into an application atleast i would be happy with
2009-04-03T13:27:11  <dennda> shall I firmly introduce you to storage so you can better judge whether you like it or not?
2009-04-03T13:27:23  <devilsadvocate> i read the specs on your user page
2009-04-03T13:27:34  <dennda> s/firmly/briefly/
2009-04-03T13:27:35  <dennda> oh ok
2009-04-03T13:27:36  <dennda> great
2009-04-03T13:27:42  <devilsadvocate> so i have a general idea
2009-04-03T13:27:59  <dennda> so other things that need to be done that are not covered by my application:
2009-04-03T13:28:43  <dennda> - we have a filesystem backend for the new storage layer (incompatible with previous filesystem storage, but that doesn't matter). that backend is only usable on POSIX filesystems and not win32. we'd like to have it run on all major platforms or windows too, at least
2009-04-03T13:28:47  <dreimark> everyone could file more than one applicateion :)
2009-04-03T13:28:59  <dennda> I'll stay with this one application :-)
2009-04-03T13:29:22  <dennda> - there's middleware we need that isn't done yet. e.g. we need some layering middleware
2009-04-03T13:29:23  <devilsadvocate> hm
2009-04-03T13:29:38  <dennda> (i put that into my application, but I'm willing to give that task to you if you want)
2009-04-03T13:30:36  <dennda> dreimark: do you happen to know what 19.00 UTC is in german time?
2009-04-03T13:30:52  <devilsadvocate> i'd rather not
2009-04-03T13:31:03  <devilsadvocate> i know precious little about win32 file systems except fat16 and 32
2009-04-03T13:31:04  <dennda> it's not too difficult
2009-04-03T13:31:10  <dennda> ah
2009-04-03T13:31:11  <dennda> ok
2009-04-03T13:31:18  <dreimark> dennda: you weren'tlogged in?
2009-04-03T13:31:34  <dennda> the layering thing "is not too difficult", the filesystem backend certainly requires some filesystem knowledge :-)
2009-04-03T13:31:39  <dennda> dreimark: into what?
2009-04-03T13:31:42  <devilsadvocate> :)
2009-04-03T13:31:53  <dreimark> query seems to tell you are sleeping
2009-04-03T13:32:23  <dennda> I always do that ;)
2009-04-03T13:32:25  *** alfonsodg has joined #moin-dev
2009-04-03T13:32:44  <TheSheep> half of the brain sleeps, they switch at midnight
2009-04-03T13:32:46  <devilsadvocate> layering as in putting in abstractions between moin and the filesystem we are writing?
2009-04-03T13:33:08  <devilsadvocate> filesystem backend *
2009-04-03T13:33:10  <dennda> devilsadvocate: so yes, file another application
2009-04-03T13:33:23  <dennda> devilsadvocate: layering as in... just a sec
2009-04-03T13:34:08  <dennda> devilsadvocate: layering should work like this: backend = LayeringMiddleWare(readonlybackend=SomeBackend(), writablebackend=SomeBackend())
2009-04-03T13:34:42  <devilsadvocate> i see
2009-04-03T13:34:45  <dennda> devilsadvocate: so that merges several backends together. if one tries to edit a page from the r/o-backend, it gets copied to the writablebackend and edited there
2009-04-03T13:39:46  <dennda> devilsadvocate: You get the idea? It could then be used to provide the read only data underlay or other things
2009-04-03T13:40:02  <dennda> (that is but one usecase...)
2009-04-03T13:42:43  <devilsadvocate> yep
2009-04-03T13:42:56  <devilsadvocate> makes sense
2009-04-03T13:44:35  <dennda> that + killing attachfile + other things (need to check back with ThomasWaldmann), could go into a seperate application if you like
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2009-04-03T13:52:05  <dennda> devilsadvocate: there's still 7 hours left ;)
2009-04-03T13:52:47  *** dimazest has quit IRC
2009-04-03T13:54:32  <devilsadvocate> 7 hours :)
2009-04-03T13:58:07  *** ujain has joined #moin-dev
2009-04-03T13:58:55  * ujain away
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2009-04-03T14:03:58  <dreimark> welcom ujain
2009-04-03T14:04:12  <dreimark> waldi: ping ^^^
2009-04-03T14:04:33  <ujain> hi dreimark .. Sorry, I had to go away for a while.
2009-04-03T14:05:08  <ujain> I was going through the specifications of the current TreeFormatter developed by waldi
2009-04-03T14:05:27  <dreimark> ok waldi is the dom tree expert, if you can stay connected
2009-04-03T14:05:59  <dreimark> you can ask all your questions and he can answer
2009-04-03T14:06:50  <ujain> yeah, i am just going through structures of DocBook and ReSt.
2009-04-03T14:06:54  <dreimark> if you need to disconnect all is logged to > http://moinmo.in/MoinMoinChat/Logs/moin-dev/2009-04-03
2009-04-03T14:07:37  <ujain> Okay. Thanks :)
2009-04-03T14:15:42  <ujain> waldi: did you write documentation of code that you write in converter2 ?
2009-04-03T14:21:29  <dennda> i will be a bit unresponsive for the next few hours but will look every now and then. if you want something, please hilight me
2009-04-03T14:22:18  <dennda> i'll finnish my app later this evening (tell me if i need to remove things for devilsadvocate)
2009-04-03T14:22:44  <devilsadvocate> dennda, i'll ping you once im done writing
2009-04-03T14:23:06  <devilsadvocate> or once i get the basic structure down
2009-04-03T14:23:18  <dennda> (i.e., everything except SqlA and acl)
2009-04-03T14:23:26  <devilsadvocate> so that we can work out any potential clashes, etc
2009-04-03T14:24:16  <dennda> yes
2009-04-03T14:25:06  <dennda> as long as you don't want to do sqla and acl i'm fine. need to check with ThomasWaldmann if you can have routing...
2009-04-03T14:25:43  <devilsadvocate> ok
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2009-04-03T14:37:16  <PawelPacana> moin
2009-04-03T14:39:43  *** mib_omeu34 has joined #moin-dev
2009-04-03T15:07:23  <TheSheep> hi PawelPacana
2009-04-03T15:07:35  *** mib_omeu34 has left #moin-dev
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2009-04-03T15:26:24  <ujain> ThomasWaldmann & dreimark: It will take me, some time to draft a good proposal for the dom conversion & Parser application. As the deadline is approaching, i think i should first finish my application of S5 usage with MoinMoin and then I will start writing application for Dom conversion. Hopefully, I will submit both before the deadline.
2009-04-03T15:26:54  *** dimazest has quit IRC
2009-04-03T15:26:58  <ujain> wdyt ?
2009-04-03T15:38:07  *** ujain has quit IRC
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2009-04-03T15:45:16  <dreimark> ujain: ok
2009-04-03T16:35:12  <dennda> ujain: you must. i doubt they'll accept proposals post-deadline
2009-04-03T16:36:04  <dreimark> I think it can be changed a bit while we discuss it but initial idea must be posted
2009-04-03T16:36:43  <ujain> Okay. I will post the initial idea, and I can later post links to further details.
2009-04-03T17:02:49  <ThomasWaldmann> re
2009-04-03T17:10:26  <ThomasWaldmann> devilsadvocate: your time plan on the wiki looks a bit strange (week1,3,7,9?)
2009-04-03T17:11:16  <ThomasWaldmann> ah, ignore that. read your note.
2009-04-03T17:12:00  <ThomasWaldmann> maybe you should write "script that ..." though
2009-04-03T17:14:02  <ThomasWaldmann> please also add the midterm eval, so that your goals until then are clear
2009-04-03T17:16:10  <ThomasWaldmann> the theme colour modification can be done by a user css, some browsers even offer UI support for this (thus, this is a bit out of scope for your procject)
2009-04-03T17:18:40  <ThomasWaldmann> btw, migration from x.y.z to x.y.z+1 is usually trivial. so if you like to work on migration, you'll have to deal with x.y.* to x.y+n.* as well.
2009-04-03T17:20:01  <TheSheep> .oO(it would be nice to have scripted migration tests for all combinations of supported setups)
2009-04-03T17:23:00  <devilsadvocate> hm, wont an iterative migration process work? as in, migration by induction ? :P
2009-04-03T17:24:49  <devilsadvocate> ok
2009-04-03T17:26:13  <devilsadvocate> I wasnt sure of the migration versions to list. I meant that migration from one version to another requiring actual migration scripts to run, while not doing something to the order of 1.1.x to 1.9.0
2009-04-03T17:26:53  <ThomasWaldmann> btw, in you do some backup code for non-shell users, you also need restore code (which is more tricky)
2009-04-03T17:27:16  <devilsadvocate> yes,
2009-04-03T17:27:27  <devilsadvocate> oh wait. i think i did not mention that in the deliverables
2009-04-03T17:27:29  * devilsadvocate checks
2009-04-03T17:28:31  <ThomasWaldmann> btw, when looking at storage project, backup and restore gets a bit a different thing that it is now
2009-04-03T17:28:56  <ThomasWaldmann> s/that it/than it/
2009-04-03T17:34:24  <devilsadvocate> yes, im hoping that the new system can also be incorporated into this
2009-04-03T17:34:39  <devilsadvocate> it should, in fact, be marginally easier
2009-04-03T17:34:53  <devilsadvocate> since mysql already has db export functions for it
2009-04-03T17:35:09  <devilsadvocate> now if the storage truely becomes freeform,
2009-04-03T17:35:17  <devilsadvocate> then things could get a tad bit messy
2009-04-03T17:37:53  <ThomasWaldmann> you won't ever get in touch with the stuff beyond the backend
2009-04-03T17:39:55  <devilsadvocate> ThomasWaldmann, edited the timeline
2009-04-03T17:40:17  <devilsadvocate> its starting to look fun :P
2009-04-03T17:43:42  <devilsadvocate> i should probably put it into a table
2009-04-03T17:51:02  <dennda> ok i submitted my somewhat final app
2009-04-03T17:57:42  <dennda> back in 2 hours
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2009-04-03T18:05:17  <dreimark> bbl
2009-04-03T18:35:18  <PawelPacana> ThomasWaldmann: in case you need someone to mentor hg stuff, i offer myself
2009-04-03T18:35:44  <TheSheep> s/offer/sacrifice
2009-04-03T18:40:41  <PawelPacana> weren't sheeps usually sacrificed?
2009-04-03T18:40:46  <PawelPacana> ;)
2009-04-03T18:41:30  <TheSheep> goats
2009-04-03T18:41:36  <TheSheep> you are confusing facts
2009-04-03T18:41:51  <devilsadvocate> depends on the culture
2009-04-03T18:42:11  <devilsadvocate> on gsoc, its developers :P
2009-04-03T18:42:12  <TheSheep> moinmoin is mostly German
2009-04-03T18:42:23  <devilsadvocate> i noticed
2009-04-03T18:42:46  <TheSheep> although some of us are from the former terriorities of Germany ;)
2009-04-03T18:42:49  <devilsadvocate> i wanted to learn german sometime to understand roger whittaker
2009-04-03T18:43:04  <devilsadvocate> most of his discography is german
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2009-04-03T19:03:44  <PawelPacana> bbl
2009-04-03T19:14:07  <ThomasWaldmann> PawelPacana: hg stuff?
2009-04-03T19:15:45  <dreimark> re
2009-04-03T19:16:22  <ThomasWaldmann> 1h 45mins left, let's see how many application we get from now :P
2009-04-03T19:16:30  <dreimark> he is talking about the hg backend
2009-04-03T19:17:04  <ThomasWaldmann> well, there was no ideas about improving the hg backend on the ideas page iirc
2009-04-03T19:17:43  <ThomasWaldmann> but of course, if someone working on storage finds something, we'll ask pavel :)
2009-04-03T19:19:57  * devilsadvocate was just writing about hg backend :P
2009-04-03T19:23:29  <dreimark> :)
2009-04-03T19:50:58  <ThomasWaldmann> re
2009-04-03T19:57:21  <dreimark> is Omar here?
2009-04-03T20:00:32  <dreimark> another one arrived
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2009-04-03T20:02:14  <mib_knku86> Hi, i have some students which havent ready their applications... no problem in they launch right now registration and links to the wiki for fill the information
2009-04-03T20:02:18  <mib_knku86> any problem?
2009-04-03T20:04:28  <ThomasWaldmann> mib_knku86: what does "i have some students" mean?
2009-04-03T20:07:00  <mib_knku86> 3 people
2009-04-03T20:07:16  <dreimark> I think if it looks draft it is no problem, but there must be some content
2009-04-03T20:08:13  <mib_knku86> Sure, i mean they will fill the wiki (gain some extra hours), however their application will be ready for google
2009-04-03T20:08:22  <mib_knku86> by the way i am alfonsodg
2009-04-03T20:09:02  <devilsadvocate> ThomasWaldmann, dreimark can you take a look at http://moinmo.in/ChintalagiriShashank (first project : moin in mixed environment development in non-software projects)
2009-04-03T20:09:28  <ThomasWaldmann> good to know :)
2009-04-03T20:09:44  <dreimark> mib_knku86: thanks for telling
2009-04-03T20:09:45  <ThomasWaldmann> the application should contain everything we ask for
2009-04-03T20:09:59  <devilsadvocate> yeah, working on the timeline now
2009-04-03T20:10:06  <ThomasWaldmann> if there are some ideas not fully detailed, we can clear it later
2009-04-03T20:10:34  <dreimark> mib_knku86: you should get a cloak
2009-04-03T20:10:36  <ThomasWaldmann> but it should contain the major things (because only that will be official)
2009-04-03T20:11:07  <mib_knku86> Sure, however we have 50 mins and need more applications, if we can read in the wiki gain some additional time (Sugarlabs is doing that right now)
2009-04-03T20:11:47  <ThomasWaldmann> filling our form doesnt take 50mins
2009-04-03T20:12:16  <dimazest_> hi, reimar asked me about beta tests of the refactored group code
2009-04-03T20:12:36  <dimazest_> when it will be possible to test it
2009-04-03T20:12:36  <devilsadvocate> it might take 50 min for the app to open :|
2009-04-03T20:12:37  <dreimark> dimazest_: and what do you think
2009-04-03T20:12:45  <ThomasWaldmann> haha
2009-04-03T20:12:47  <mib_knku86> ThomasWaldmann: Sure, but their proposals are not ready finished
2009-04-03T20:13:07  <mib_knku86> ThomasWaldmann: they can finish in the wiki.....
2009-04-03T20:13:23  <ThomasWaldmann> do they have good reasons why 2wk were not enough
2009-04-03T20:13:48  <dreimark> ok, but a tilte and a draft to be continued in qiki should possible
2009-04-03T20:14:06  <dreimark> (arrgh typos)
2009-04-03T20:14:13  <mib_knku86> ThomasWaldmann: translation problems........ all are spanish speakers, i am helping to translate
2009-04-03T20:14:46  <ThomasWaldmann> they do not speak english?
2009-04-03T20:15:05  <dreimark> google.com/translate_t
2009-04-03T20:15:35  <mib_knku86> ThomasWaldmann: not very good....
2009-04-03T20:16:01  *** dimazest_ is now known as dimazest
2009-04-03T20:16:04  <ThomasWaldmann> mib_knku86: the problem is that mid term and final evals have to be based on something, and the only thing authoritative is what's in the gsoc app
2009-04-03T20:16:31  <ThomasWaldmann> so, it should be at least clear about the main points and the scope.
2009-04-03T20:16:41  <ThomasWaldmann> details can be discussed later
2009-04-03T20:17:50  <ThomasWaldmann> and if they have major problems with English, I am not sure how the project would work out.
2009-04-03T20:18:17  <ThomasWaldmann> we expect comments, variable names, documentation and communication in English
2009-04-03T20:20:30  <mib_knku86> ThomasWaldmann: Well, i am spanish speaker and surely can co-mentor with anyone....
2009-04-03T20:21:28  <ThomasWaldmann> that's clear. but still, the student needs to communicate with the community and the other devs.
2009-04-03T20:22:09  <ThomasWaldmann> i don't have a problem if someones english isn't perfect, but we should be able to understand him and vice versa.
2009-04-03T20:22:40  <dennda> bah just injured myself...
2009-04-03T20:22:47  <ThomasWaldmann> mib_knku86: don't they have english at school?
2009-04-03T20:22:55  <dennda> took a little longer to get home
2009-04-03T20:23:23  <dreimark> mib_knku86: it depends all on everyones skills and how interaction works with all together. Lets see what kind of applications they propose to work on and what skill level theyhave
2009-04-03T20:23:33  <ThomasWaldmann> dennda: bike stunt?
2009-04-03T20:24:13  * dreimark think that it is clear that's not a good idea to do some climbing sports in the next months
2009-04-03T20:24:23  <mib_knku86> ThomasWaldmann: they know some english, but still have a mispelling errors, and so on.... i beleive they can do the work,  the problem is sometimes the tecnical preparartion of the proposals
2009-04-03T20:25:59  <dimazest> dreimark: i think, that 2 weeks before the midterm is good time
2009-04-03T20:26:42  <dimazest> by that time i should be finishing with refactoring
2009-04-03T20:28:06  <ThomasWaldmann> mib_knku86: ok, they shall just try what they get done until the deadline.
2009-04-03T20:28:08  <devilsadvocate> dennda, just submitted a second application (albeit still incomplete.. missing the timeline)
2009-04-03T20:28:08  <dreimark> ok, thanks for answwering in melange too
2009-04-03T20:28:27  <ThomasWaldmann> saving every 5mins will help to get as much into the app as possible
2009-04-03T20:28:59  <ThomasWaldmann> (and then just re-edit the main app text, that'll work until the deadline, later one can only comment)
2009-04-03T20:29:42  <dimazest> any other questions? we can discuss them in the melange, just to make things fixed
2009-04-03T20:29:43  <ThomasWaldmann> if they are lucky, google won't pull the trigger at 1900utc, but a bit later
2009-04-03T20:34:05  <dreimark> dimazest: the link to the backend/config_group.py does not work
2009-04-03T20:36:15  <dennda> ThomasWaldmann: ne, mit vollem gewicht im sprung mit linkem fuss auf jemandes fuss aufgekommen und umgeknickt
2009-04-03T20:36:20  <dennda> devilsadvocate: can I read it?
2009-04-03T20:38:11  <devilsadvocate> dennda, its on my wiki page
2009-04-03T20:38:14  <devilsadvocate> one sec
2009-04-03T20:39:18  <dimazest> i've updated the link
2009-04-03T20:39:23  <devilsadvocate> http://moinmo.in/ChintalagiriShashank
2009-04-03T20:39:26  <devilsadvocate> dennda, ^
2009-04-03T20:39:32  <mib_knku86> ThomasWaldmann: Spachast du deutsch?
2009-04-03T20:39:34  <dimazest> here it is http://hg.moinmo.in/moin/0.0/1.8-ldapgroups-mmihaljevic/file/c9a888a7bdb8/MoinMoin/datastruct/backend/config_group.py
2009-04-03T20:39:42  <mib_knku86> sprachst
2009-04-03T20:39:58  <dennda> Using the storage system that now exists in Moin, we could write a new backend (and middleware) that knows how to communicate with a version control system.
2009-04-03T20:40:04  <dennda> devilsadvocate: ^-- already exists
2009-04-03T20:40:25  <dennda> hg at least
2009-04-03T20:40:50  <dennda> thus, bzr backend is not too important from my point of view
2009-04-03T20:40:58  <devilsadvocate> ouch
2009-04-03T20:40:59  <devilsadvocate> yeah
2009-04-03T20:46:43  <dennda> -> shower
2009-04-03T20:50:09  <devilsadvocate> i dont want to move the _entire_ wiki onto a hg backend
2009-04-03T20:50:35  <devilsadvocate> i just want my binary files to come from hg/bzr instead of via AttachFile
2009-04-03T20:51:11  <devilsadvocate> (not saying AttachFile has to go, either. Sometimes hg/bzr would be too expensive if the files are considered stable : datasheets, for example)
2009-04-03T20:51:13  <dreimark> devilsadvocate: wikisync can work quite easy by hg
2009-04-03T20:54:12  <ThomasWaldmann> mib_knku86: ja, ich spreche deutsch :)
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2009-04-03T20:56:37  <ThomasWaldmann> devilsadvocate: revision control systems are not very good in dealing with binary files, esp. not with compressed data
2009-04-03T20:56:48  <devilsadvocate> yes, but there is no other option
2009-04-03T20:56:52  <devilsadvocate> i've searched
2009-04-03T20:56:53  <ThomasWaldmann> so just having the files in moin storage does the same job
2009-04-03T20:57:07  <devilsadvocate> its not possible to get a meaningful diff
2009-04-03T20:57:21  <ThomasWaldmann> for binaries?
2009-04-03T20:57:25  <devilsadvocate> yeah
2009-04-03T20:57:33  <devilsadvocate> even with a vcs
2009-04-03T20:57:35  <ThomasWaldmann> yes, and?
2009-04-03T20:57:52  <devilsadvocate> but atleast the revision history can be logged with the commit messages
2009-04-03T20:58:29  <devilsadvocate> which we found to be best way to do things (other than manually putting in stuff inside the file itself, which is not always possible)
2009-04-03T20:59:18  <ThomasWaldmann> hmm, i don't get the point for your stuff compared to storage repo stuff
2009-04-03T20:59:38  <devilsadvocate> does moin store its history on attachments? (come to think of it, i never actually tried to overwrite an attachment in moin)
2009-04-03T21:00:05  <ThomasWaldmann> <=1.9 no, 2.0+ yes
2009-04-03T21:00:30  <ThomasWaldmann> that's one of the main points of storage work
2009-04-03T21:00:32  <devilsadvocate> its sort of like this : I dont _need_ VCS on the repository
2009-04-03T21:00:37  <devilsadvocate> sorry
2009-04-03T21:00:42  <devilsadvocate> VCS on the wiki content
2009-04-03T21:00:52  <devilsadvocate> i really dont care either way
2009-04-03T21:01:18  <devilsadvocate> to make it easier, instead of filling the vcs with history of the wiki (where is may not be very helpful)
2009-04-03T21:01:40  <devilsadvocate> i would like to leave the wiki stuff to moin, let it do it as it does now or with SQLa
2009-04-03T21:01:41  *** mib_knku86 has quit IRC
2009-04-03T21:02:12  <devilsadvocate> but for the files that i really care about, that moin _cant_ handle by itself (if it can from 2.0, then this doesnt matter)
2009-04-03T21:02:26  <dennda> what files?
2009-04-03T21:02:29  <dennda> it will
2009-04-03T21:02:36  <dennda> all data will be put into storage
2009-04-03T21:02:37  <ThomasWaldmann> well, you will be able to compose backends, like in a filesystem, mounting different backends at different places in the namespaces
2009-04-03T21:02:54  <dennda> currently with AttachFile that's not the case
2009-04-03T21:02:58  <dennda> thus: kill AttachFile :-)
2009-04-03T21:03:02  <ThomasWaldmann> but there won't be any difference in handling of items
2009-04-03T21:03:36  <devilsadvocate> yes, that I did not know/realize
2009-04-03T21:04:46  <ThomasWaldmann> btw, binaries in vcs have a problem: it grows and grows and grows...
2009-04-03T21:05:02  <devilsadvocate> yes, it does
2009-04-03T21:05:04  <ThomasWaldmann> esp. for compressed stuff, when even the binary diff algos fail
2009-04-03T21:05:37  <ThomasWaldmann> for moin, we can have a purge policy, so it won't store 1000 versions of your dvd.iso
2009-04-03T21:06:33  <devilsadvocate> that would be interesting
2009-04-03T21:06:44  <devilsadvocate> having that many versions
2009-04-03T21:06:49  <dennda> one could emulate old attachfile handling by setting that to "store 1 revision only"
2009-04-03T21:07:10  <devilsadvocate> the files i had in mind were more of a very small kind
2009-04-03T21:07:31  <dennda> well yeah, the purge policy would require some thinking
2009-04-03T21:07:36  <devilsadvocate> eagle files, schematics, uml diagrams (which, sadly, are rarely stored in ascii)
2009-04-03T21:07:44  <dennda> obviously you don't want to kill revisions of a 2kb file
2009-04-03T21:09:17  <ThomasWaldmann> 12 apps as of now
2009-04-03T21:09:30  * dennda was just about to ask
2009-04-03T21:09:34  <devilsadvocate> there is no "as of now" anymore :P
2009-04-03T21:09:38  <dennda> deadlines have some motivating character :D
2009-04-03T21:09:43  <dennda> ThomasWaldmann: how many applicants?
2009-04-03T21:10:46  <ThomasWaldmann> 11
2009-04-03T21:10:56  <dennda> yay
2009-04-03T21:11:13  <dennda> even more cool
2009-04-03T21:11:25  <dennda> how many did apply for storage things except omar and me?
2009-04-03T21:16:19  <dreimark> psst
2009-04-03T21:16:20  *** grzywacz has joined #moin-dev
2009-04-03T21:17:49  <ThomasWaldmann> dennda: nothing you do not know already
2009-04-03T21:17:59  <dennda> ok :/
2009-04-03T21:18:25  <devilsadvocate> crap. didnt proofread the application before submitting
2009-04-03T21:18:28  <devilsadvocate> oh, well
2009-04-03T21:18:42  <dennda> it's past deadline already, btw
2009-04-03T21:19:00  <dreimark> 5663 student proposals in total that were not inellegible
2009-04-03T21:21:02  <ThomasWaldmann> dennda: did they lock the applications yet?
2009-04-03T21:21:54  *** alfonsodg has joined #moin-dev
2009-04-03T21:23:52  <devilsadvocate> yeah
2009-04-03T21:24:01  <devilsadvocate> it got locked the instant the time occured
2009-04-03T21:24:35  <dennda> ThomasWaldmann: didn't check
2009-04-03T21:24:43  <dennda> i won't be touching it again
2009-04-03T21:24:46  <dennda> that editor scares me
2009-04-03T21:24:55  <ThomasWaldmann> devilsadvocate: oh, ok
2009-04-03T21:26:22  <devilsadvocate> its not just the editor
2009-04-03T21:26:38  <devilsadvocate> the site itself refuses to open if i use my NATed internet connection
2009-04-03T21:27:02  <devilsadvocate> thats the first website i've seen that works better through the proxy
2009-04-03T21:27:09  <ThomasWaldmann> devilsadvocate: we all have nat
2009-04-03T21:27:26  <devilsadvocate> our setup is probably royally messed up
2009-04-03T21:27:37  <devilsadvocate> i just keep getting waiting for infinite time
2009-04-03T21:27:52  <devilsadvocate> switch to proxy and it comes through in a second or two
2009-04-03T21:28:06  <devilsadvocate> anyway, its done now :)
2009-04-03T21:47:43  *** mib_j5srmi has joined #moin-dev
2009-04-03T22:04:12  <PawelPacana> re
2009-04-03T22:09:35  *** alfonsodg has quit IRC
2009-04-03T22:12:29  <PawelPacana> ThomasWaldmann: by saying hg stuff i meant something around versioned backend, but if you were to lose 'slot' due to lack of mentor, i could possibly pick any another topic
2009-04-03T22:14:42  <dennda> i guess you can just sign up as mentor
2009-04-03T22:15:02  * dennda doesn't know when slot counts are announced
2009-04-03T22:22:56  <ThomasWaldmann> usually late in the ranking process, but a bit before the stuff is published in case there are conflicts to solve
2009-04-03T22:28:06  <PawelPacana> so, should i sign up?
2009-04-03T22:32:53  <ThomasWaldmann> PawelPacana: if you have time to mentor and would like to: sure
2009-04-03T22:34:00  <PawelPacana> i guess mentoring takes less time than being accepted student
2009-04-03T22:35:02  <ThomasWaldmann> yes, usually :D
2009-04-03T22:35:12  <PawelPacana> ;)
2009-04-03T22:43:33  <PawelPacana> ThomasWaldmann: done
2009-04-03T22:47:27  <ThomasWaldmann> PawelPacana: accepted
2009-04-03T23:14:36  <PawelPacana> danke
2009-04-03T23:32:54  *** rocco has joined #moin-dev
2009-04-03T23:32:57  <rocco> hey peeps
2009-04-03T23:33:14  *** rocco is now known as cbx33
2009-04-03T23:33:19  <cbx33> stupid x-chat
2009-04-03T23:33:51  <ThomasWaldmann> hi cbx33
2009-04-03T23:34:11  <cbx33> howz it going ThomasWaldmann
2009-04-03T23:34:40  <ThomasWaldmann> first deadline passed :)
2009-04-03T23:34:44  <cbx33> yup
2009-04-03T23:36:07  <ThomasWaldmann> now we have to review stuff and comment, so students can clarify if needed
2009-04-03T23:36:49  <ThomasWaldmann> scoring will be later, except for very obvious cases
2009-04-03T23:37:58  <ronny> sup?
2009-04-03T23:38:19  <ThomasWaldmann> wus?
2009-04-03T23:39:56  <ronny> sup = whats up
2009-04-03T23:40:08  <ThomasWaldmann> ah
2009-04-03T23:41:09  <cbx33> sup sup