MoinMoin: MoinMoinChat/Logs/moin-dev/2008-05-14

2008-05-14T00:00:39  <johill> dennda: we should check if the storage abstraction can handle big attachments, so far it seems to not really, and see if e.g. sqlite can do chunk reads
2008-05-14T00:00:48  <johill> dennda: do you have a todo list of some sort? :)
2008-05-14T00:20:17  * ThomasWaldmann killed all keys from the hg account
2008-05-14T00:21:39  <johill> good choice, probably
2008-05-14T00:22:14  <johill> hrm. my ssl certificate is probably affected as well :/
2008-05-14T08:34:16  <gizmach> moin
2008-05-14T08:34:29  * gizmach is unavailable until evening
2008-05-14T08:36:33  * gizmach is away: laboratories day 
2008-05-14T08:55:15  <dreimark> hi gizmach
2008-05-14T09:22:14  <ThomasWaldmann> moin
2008-05-14T09:25:41  <gizmach> dreimark :)
2008-05-14T09:26:20  <dreimark> besides the ldap test did you seen login from your ldap does work?
2008-05-14T09:26:26  <dreimark> gizmach:
2008-05-14T09:35:19  <gizmach> dreimark: no, just test
2008-05-14T09:35:22  <gizmach> bbl
2008-05-14T11:46:03  <ThomasWaldmann> btw, every developer (that includes soc students :) please read the note on http://moinmo.in/MoinDev/MercurialGuide
2008-05-14T11:46:27  <ThomasWaldmann> and please send the ssh pub key as email attachment
2008-05-14T11:46:41  <TheSheep> hehe
2008-05-14T11:48:01  * TheSheep looks at how they run
2008-05-14T11:48:55  <TheSheep> ThomasWaldmann: my key is not affected, do you still have it or do I have to send it again?
2008-05-14T11:49:08  <ThomasWaldmann> i deleted all keys
2008-05-14T11:49:42  <TheSheep> ok, so here goes a mail
2008-05-14T11:52:10  <ThomasWaldmann> that was not as attachment :)
2008-05-14T11:52:39  <TheSheep> it said to send it as attachment?
2008-05-14T11:52:49  <TheSheep> sorry
2008-05-14T11:53:03  <ThomasWaldmann> (11:46) < ThomasWal> and please send the ssh pub key as email attachment
2008-05-14T11:53:30  <TheSheep> ah, I missed it, sorry
2008-05-14T11:53:40  <TheSheep> I was looking at the page already :)
2008-05-14T11:53:51  <TheSheep> you want a second one?
2008-05-14T11:55:33  <ThomasWaldmann> yes
2008-05-14T11:57:11  <TheSheep> whooosh!
2008-05-14T12:38:14  <johill> ThomasWaldmann: I disagree, imho the fact that xapian is used should be totallly transparent to the user
2008-05-14T12:38:36  <johill> ThomasWaldmann: everything else is asking for a lot of trouble in teh long run, especially with storage refactoring
2008-05-14T12:39:13  <ThomasWaldmann> it cant be totally transparent
2008-05-14T12:39:30  <johill> why not?
2008-05-14T12:39:42  <ThomasWaldmann> because you can only find stuff in the index
2008-05-14T12:39:46  <TheSheep> because it works in a different way
2008-05-14T12:40:03  <TheSheep> unless you want to cripple the non-xapian search to make it fit
2008-05-14T12:40:16  <johill> uh huh
2008-05-14T12:40:22  <johill> no no
2008-05-14T12:40:23  <ThomasWaldmann> e.g. if i search for ohil, i won't find a page about johill
2008-05-14T12:40:33  <johill> yeah that's dumb in the regular search to start with
2008-05-14T12:41:04  <johill> nobody really wants to search for the middle of words anyway, I'd think
2008-05-14T12:41:17  <johill> (at least not by default)
2008-05-14T12:41:19  <ThomasWaldmann> (and we don't want to index n! subterms either :)
2008-05-14T12:41:24  <TheSheep> how about including a primitive indexer into moin to be used when xapian is not available? :)
2008-05-14T12:42:04  <ThomasWaldmann> we still talk about 1.7 (at least me :)
2008-05-14T12:42:19  <johill> yeah but any change you do in 1.7 we'll have to keep forward for the future
2008-05-14T12:42:40  <johill> unless we can agree that revamping the search completely is an acceptable option
2008-05-14T12:42:50  <johill> (which I'm not totally against either)
2008-05-14T12:43:25  <ThomasWaldmann> the problem is that slow search is too slow for some people and cant handle attachments
2008-05-14T12:43:44  <ThomasWaldmann> otoh xapian does not find everything that slow search finds
2008-05-14T12:44:01  <johill> well the part about attachments will have to be checked anyway once attachments are in regular storage
2008-05-14T12:44:05  <ThomasWaldmann> so the only way to make people happy right now is to easily offer both
2008-05-14T12:44:34  <johill> I see nothing preventing to add a primitive index for slow search through attachments
2008-05-14T12:44:59  <ThomasWaldmann> "2 weeks"
2008-05-14T12:45:12  <johill> in storage branch, I mean
2008-05-14T12:45:13  <TheSheep> woo hoo
2008-05-14T12:45:28  <TheSheep> ThomasWaldmann: when is the feature freeze?
2008-05-14T12:45:43  <ThomasWaldmann> that has been long ago
2008-05-14T12:45:48  <johill> ThomasWaldmann: I just don't think it's a good idea to call the flag "xapian"
2008-05-14T12:46:06  <ThomasWaldmann> useindex?
2008-05-14T12:46:10  <johill> no
2008-05-14T12:46:15  <johill> make it semantic not technical
2008-05-14T12:46:16  <ThomasWaldmann> slow?
2008-05-14T12:46:28  <johill> i.e. something like "find middle of words too"
2008-05-14T12:46:44  <johill> "find substrings of words"
2008-05-14T12:46:44  <ThomasWaldmann> then we need a lot of flags :)
2008-05-14T12:46:52  <johill> "implicit truncation"
2008-05-14T12:46:53  <TheSheep> search_substrings
2008-05-14T12:47:05  <johill> why a lot of flags? I thought this was the issue
2008-05-14T12:47:28  <ThomasWaldmann> searching attachments is another difference
2008-05-14T12:47:50  <TheSheep> search = attachments|substrings :P
2008-05-14T12:47:52  <johill> but then you can't do substrings:1 attachments:1
2008-05-14T12:48:00  <ThomasWaldmann> case sensitivity might be also a difference
2008-05-14T12:48:08  <ThomasWaldmann> stemming is a difference
2008-05-14T12:48:16  <ThomasWaldmann> ...
2008-05-14T12:48:16  <johill> huh? that's dumb, xapian should be able to handle case sensitivity
2008-05-14T12:49:00  <ThomasWaldmann> so i see your point, but that wouldn't make it easy to use
2008-05-14T12:49:01  <johill> just goes to show how well thought-out the xapian search is......
2008-05-14T12:50:44  <johill> why is stemming not available with the regular search anyway?
2008-05-14T12:52:18  <TheSheep> johill: you'd like to generate a regex with all possibilities?
2008-05-14T12:53:15  <ThomasWaldmann> johill: maybe it is, not sure
2008-05-14T12:53:17  <johill> it's not like searching/indexing is rocket science
2008-05-14T12:54:30  <ThomasWaldmann> any easy ideas?
2008-05-14T12:55:05  <ThomasWaldmann> i want to use this either from the search field, like typing in slow:1 ohil
2008-05-14T12:55:50  <johill> yeah I don't really like that but I said that
2008-05-14T12:56:06  <ThomasWaldmann> or offer it as link to the fullsearch action with &slow=1&... (after the fast search has finished)
2008-05-14T12:56:10  <johill> we could just use 'substrings:1 ohil' and treat the lack of attachment/stemming search as bugs
2008-05-14T12:56:14  <johill> ;)
2008-05-14T12:58:09  <ThomasWaldmann> and I wanted to implement it by just using a switch (in the way xapian_enabled works)
2008-05-14T12:58:24  <ThomasWaldmann> ehrm, cfg.xapian_search
2008-05-14T13:00:34  <ThomasWaldmann> anyway, it should be something easy and implementable quickly and without much code change
2008-05-14T13:01:09  <johill> imho how you implement it is orthogonal
2008-05-14T13:01:17  <johill> how you name it is what people will come to expect from it
2008-05-14T13:01:40  <johill> but I guess it doesn't matter all that much if w edon't need to keep it around forever
2008-05-14T13:04:54  <ThomasWaldmann> i guess we have to live with some compat issues in that area
2008-05-14T13:05:27  <ThomasWaldmann> as both searches doesn't do the same thing, you might have to write different queries for them
2008-05-14T13:07:06  <ThomasWaldmann> so the admin either does not enable xapian in the cfg (and does not build an index)
2008-05-14T13:07:16  <ThomasWaldmann> then we do slow search anyway
2008-05-14T13:07:51  <ThomasWaldmann> or he enables it, then we just need some UI switch to turn it off temporarily
2008-05-14T13:09:33  <ThomasWaldmann> that would make xapian usable for everybody and the worst thing that could happen is that xapian doesn't find what you wanted and you turn it off for next try.
2008-05-14T13:10:56  <johill> yeah I guess it doesn't matter, if that flag goes away in the future and both searches behave fine
2008-05-14T13:13:11  <ThomasWaldmann> how about the UI? offering it in the msg box might be no good idea as that goes away while you browse through xapian result pages.
2008-05-14T13:13:50  <ThomasWaldmann> so it should be search query or the buttons
2008-05-14T13:14:36  <ThomasWaldmann> search query would be harder for users, but easier to use from search macro
2008-05-14T13:17:28  <ThomasWaldmann> we could also have a config var xapian_default (that steers whether xapian is used by default, when it is enabled, or needs to be switched on explicitely)
2008-05-14T13:18:02  <ThomasWaldmann> that could solve some problems for old search macros not doing what they should when xapian_search is True
2008-05-14T13:20:06  <johill> sounds over-configurable for me, but hey
2008-05-14T13:20:29  <johill> anyway, I have to go pick up a parcel
2008-05-14T13:24:31  <dennda> damn
2008-05-14T13:24:49  <dennda> It's not that easy to install moin. I got it once, but recently reinstalled this system and now I'm stuck
2008-05-14T13:24:59  <dennda> (Trying to install from hwendels branch, of course)
2008-05-14T13:25:26  <TheSheep> dennda: what's wrong?
2008-05-14T13:25:29  <johill> hg clone <....>
2008-05-14T13:25:32  <johill> cd 1.7-...
2008-05-14T13:25:35  <johill> ./moin.py
2008-05-14T13:25:37  <johill> works for me
2008-05-14T13:26:11  <dennda> jesus
2008-05-14T13:26:18  <dennda> why am I trying to install it with setup.py
2008-05-14T13:26:20  <TheSheep> where?
2008-05-14T13:26:48  <johill> dennda: what do I know? :) anyway, really have to go pick up that parcel
2008-05-14T13:27:07  <dennda> do so
2008-05-14T13:27:19  <dennda> got another error but I'll try to debug that myself
2008-05-14T13:28:07  <ThomasWaldmann> btw, the main 1.7 branch got quite some changes, so maybe merge main -> your branch often :)
2008-05-14T13:28:35  <ThomasWaldmann> dennda: there is also quite some debugging/logging related stuff in main
2008-05-14T13:29:00  <TheSheep> dennda: personally I think it would be better to work on unknown bugs and just ask about the known ones :)
2008-05-14T13:29:31  <ThomasWaldmann> and it is ./wikiserver.py there :)
2008-05-14T13:31:10  <dennda> TheSheep: """data_underlay_dir "/home/dennda/Temp/Dev/1.7-storage-hwendel/wiki/underlay" does not exists, or has incorrect ownership or permissions."""
2008-05-14T13:31:45  <dennda> oh
2008-05-14T13:31:49  <dennda> there's underlay.tar
2008-05-14T13:31:59  <TheSheep> yeah, you need to unpack it
2008-05-14T13:32:32  <ThomasWaldmann> also have a look at wikiserverlogging.conf, that's nice for getting some debug log of some specific module(s)
2008-05-14T13:33:33  <dennda> great, works now
2008-05-14T13:35:16  <ThomasWaldmann> btw, having stuff in directories called "temp" may have bad consequences :P
2008-05-14T13:39:28  <dennda> oh boy
2008-05-14T13:39:32  <dennda> I am so stupid
2008-05-14T13:40:16  <dennda> instead of creating a new user on my local wiki I created another account on moinmo.in
2008-05-14T13:40:49  <TheSheep> :)
2008-05-14T13:40:56  <TheSheep> they look too similar by default
2008-05-14T13:41:14  <dennda> yes
2008-05-14T13:41:39  <TheSheep> I mistake them all the time
2008-05-14T13:41:54  <dennda> I first had the suspicion that the logo in the upper left leads you to moinmo.in and not to localhost:8080 and I was fooled in consequence, but it seems I just was stupid
2008-05-14T13:42:10  <dennda> ThomasWaldmann: Can you delete the user dennda on moinmo.in, please?
2008-05-14T13:51:14  <ThomasWaldmann> why?
2008-05-14T13:52:01  <ThomasWaldmann> ok
2008-05-14T13:54:58  <ThomasWaldmann> gone
2008-05-14T13:56:02  <ThomasWaldmann> maybe we need a "My Moin" logo :P
2008-05-14T13:59:28  <dreimark> ThomasWaldmann: how much does it cost to run the slow search afterwards the xapian one?
2008-05-14T13:59:52  <dreimark> so we can show both results
2008-05-14T14:01:26  <dreimark> currently only 40 % of my screen shows search results much empty space
2008-05-14T14:04:32  <ThomasWaldmann> dreimark: xapian is much faster than the slow one, so we won't do both chained by default
2008-05-14T14:04:50  <TheSheep> ThomasWaldmann: my moin?
2008-05-14T14:05:10  <ThomasWaldmann> TheSheep: to avoid people confusing wikis
2008-05-14T14:05:14  <TheSheep> ThomasWaldmann: or better, some ugly 'put your logo here' placeholder :)
2008-05-14T14:05:37  <TheSheep> we could make the default logo spin ;)
2008-05-14T14:05:57  <TheSheep> wheee!
2008-05-14T14:06:30  <ThomasWaldmann> heh
2008-05-14T14:07:15  <dreimark> and some sound please
2008-05-14T14:08:54  <dennda> give it some flash!!
2008-05-14T14:14:58  <ThomasWaldmann> btw, what drugs did you take today? :P
2008-05-14T14:15:22  <TheSheep> vitamin C
2008-05-14T14:21:58  * ThomasWaldmann .o(a,b,c,sun,e :)
2008-05-14T14:37:33  <ThomasWaldmann> bbl
2008-05-14T14:37:56  * johill returns, with a new wireless card
2008-05-14T14:59:09  <ThomasWaldmann> johill: chipset?
2008-05-14T14:59:48  <johill> rt61
2008-05-14T15:00:20  <johill> or rt2561 or whatever it's called, the linux driver is rt61pci
2008-05-14T21:30:37  <LotekMarcel> hi there
2008-05-14T21:31:31  <LotekMarcel> found some AttributeError in http://test17.moinmo.in (/recoverpass/) should I fill a bug report?
2008-05-14T21:32:15  <johill> LotekMarcel: yes please and give me the url
2008-05-14T21:32:32  <johill> or just pastebin it somewhere I can probably fix it easily
2008-05-14T21:33:50  <LotekMarcel> just created a new user and tried to recover the passwort (username and password), traceback is here for a while: http://lotek.heavy.ch/Index?action=AttachFile&do=view&target=TestWiki17_AttributeError.html
2008-05-14T21:34:59  <johill> huh
2008-05-14T21:35:56  <johill> what hmac module are you using?
2008-05-14T21:36:44  <LotekMarcel> hmac module? what's that, something to eat :-)
2008-05-14T21:37:17  <johill> ahrg
2008-05-14T21:37:30  <johill> python 2.5 changed the calling convention
2008-05-14T21:39:38  <LotekMarcel> interesting is that on my 1.7beta2 testwiki the password recover is working; but using Python 2.5 (r25:51908, Nov  6 2007, 16:54:01)
2008-05-14T21:39:40  <johill> fixed
2008-05-14T21:39:54  <CIA-53> Johannes Berg <johannes AT sipsolutions DOT net> default * 3601:148669312bf8 1.7/MoinMoin/user.py: fix hmac for python 2.4
2008-05-14T21:40:38  <johill> stupid documentation could tell you...
2008-05-14T21:40:39  <LotekMarcel> aha; now I understand
2008-05-14T21:43:18  <johill> LotekMarcel: thanks for the report
2008-05-14T21:43:59  <LotekMarcel> no problemo! luv moinmoin and xapian
2008-05-14T21:46:35  <johill> heh. no crypto zealots have complained yet about python's hmac.py containing a variable named _secret_backdoor_key? ;)
2008-05-14T21:50:58  <LotekMarcel> funny, but it's empty... till now
2008-05-14T21:51:19  <johill> the purpose is its address
2008-05-14T21:54:29  <ThomasWaldmann> moin
2008-05-14T21:55:29  <ThomasWaldmann> LotekMarcel: did you see the search ideas in the 1.7.0 todo page
2008-05-14T21:56:29  <LotekMarcel> i'm reading....
2008-05-14T21:59:32  <LotekMarcel> well, in 1.6.3 if you are using a fullsearch like regex:MyPag* it will also use the moinmoin, and that's ok.
2008-05-14T22:00:01  <ThomasWaldmann> maybe not xapian:0 but rather engine:builtin (or eng:bui / eng:xap :)
2008-05-14T22:00:57  <LotekMarcel> but if a normal user would like to do some wildcard search.. what he could do if the xapian is per default running? writing something like Linu*
2008-05-14T22:05:38  <ThomasWaldmann> we dont have shellstyle wildcards
2008-05-14T22:05:41  <ThomasWaldmann> just regex
2008-05-14T22:06:14  <ThomasWaldmann> but for the slow search you dont need them anyway, Linu is like Linu*
2008-05-14T22:07:09  <LotekMarcel> what I do not get it; how the normal user could switch to the other search? need to adjust the theme with some other button like "slow search" :-)
2008-05-14T22:10:39  <ThomasWaldmann> currently no way, except by side effect of something that does not work with xapian
2008-05-14T22:11:03  <ThomasWaldmann> i also thought about a button, but having 3 or more search buttons is crazy
2008-05-14T22:11:47  <LotekMarcel> well I will use xapian and also will switch my office intranet to xapian! it's just fast, fast and fast
2008-05-14T22:13:42  <LotekMarcel> i was thinking about that if xapian is running and a user input something (in the text search filed) with a * at the end; the moinmoin switch automaticly to moinmoin search... 3 buttons are stupid, thats right
2008-05-14T22:14:45  <LotekMarcel> another point is the quality of the results; I just do not understand them. Are there any docs / hints aviable to let me understand this?
2008-05-14T22:15:04  <LotekMarcel> Just try a FullText Search under http://lotek.heavy.ch/Filesystem%20Usage?action=fullsearch&context=180&value=MoinMoin&fullsearch=Text
2008-05-14T22:19:40  <LotekMarcel> ... the sorting is even different if you're using MoinMoin or moinmoin as search term.
2008-05-14T23:26:35  <xorAxAx> moon: hi