Discussion about the MoinMoin logo.

Contents

Contents

  1. What is a good logo?
  2. The Current Logo
    1. What can be done?
  3. Logo rules
  4. New Logo Alternatives
    1. The Red M
    2. Brick M
    3. Red Circle
    4. Double M
    5. Moin Balloon
    6. Dialog Balloon
    7. White Rounded Rectangle Dialog Balloon with Text
    8. Comics Dialog Balloon
    9. Dialog Balloon with Text
    10. ascii logo
    11. Parenthesis Moin
    12. Which?
    13. MoinMoin bubbles
    14. MoinMoin Nodes
    15. Another Built Moin
    16. M Nodes in a Circle
    17. Moin Cube
    18. Dialog Balloon Logo
    19. Pond MoinMoin
    20. Shared Writing MoinMoin
    21. Cube M
    22. Moin upside-down
    23. Moin Kite
    24. Moin Ninja
    25. Moin Tu
  5. General discussion
  6. Vote

What is a good logo?

See also below where Vito expresses his detailed experience about good logos.

Here is an example of a well known logo of a computer company from Cupertino USA. We can speak about different examples, but this is my favorite:

apple-fancy.png

apple-standard.png
apple-tiny.png

apple-mouse.png

apple-box.png

Large and fancy version embedded in the user preferences icon

As navigation element on the the company site, and as a tiny favicon

Engraved on apple mouse

On a product box, see top left

The first version of this logo has rainbow like color stripes, few years later the colors where removed, and the logo is used in variations of white and gray, depending on the media. The logo is readable even as favicon. It is simple, bold and original.

The Current Logo

moinmoin.png 1

moinmoin-small.png

moinmoin-tiny.png

As used on MoinMoin home page and the wiki engine

Smaller size, possibly as a "MoinMoin Powered" badge application

Even smaller...

The naked guy holding the MoinMoin card is nice drawing, but its not a logo. Used in smaller size, it become hard to read and recognize. While he is a nice guy, it clear that it is not the best communication device MoinMoin could have.

What can be done?

There are several ways we can go:

  1. Try to make it better - draw this guy simpler and bolder, removing unneeded detail
  2. Drop it and design something completely different
  3. Do nothing, use simple text logo for smaller applications

Logo rules

Each alternative should show the logo used in:

  1. Site header
    • Should work nicley with the default theme used here - modern

    • The header must contain the word MoinMoin in a bid readable type

    • The height should not be more then 54 pixels (current logo height).
  2. Favicon
    • Size must be 16x16 pixels.

  3. MoinMoin powered image

    • Typical sizes are 80*15 pixels or 88x31 pixels valid-html401.png

  4. Desktop icon
    • For Mac OS X, at least 128x128 pixels must be provided, other sizes as needed
    • KDE: 128px (reference?)
    • Gnome: ?
    • Windows: ?

General rules:

New Logo Alternatives

Here are some alternatives. You are invited to criticize them and add your own.

The Red M

redm-normal.png redm-badge.png 2

Wiki is about text. MoinMoin has interesting name, and have nice red-brown color I like. I played with M's and made several boring alternatives, then made this one. The M has two arcs - those are built using lot of small parts supporting each other, just like a wiki which is built by many people, each adding his part. Its a bit ruff and needs some more work, but I like to hear your option before I invest more time in this direction.

-- NirSoffer

I don't like Nir's logo.

But I like

Sorry, for not supplying an own logo. -- FlorianFesti 2004-01-13 11:34:56

I would strongly recommend to ask Jürgen before changing the logo. -- FlorianFesti 2004-01-13 11:34:56

Brick M

redm-bricks.png redm-gray.png 3 a/b

I really like the m logo. I would also vote for making it out of bricks. But for me it has not to be uppercase, cause I think it will loose expression in uppercase (to 'pointy'). Perhaps it would be nice to see a grayscale version, too...

Hmmm... I think I don't like gray...

-- OliverGraf 2004-01-14 18:21:00

Nir, this IS interesting, but - for me - there are at least 2 problems:

-- ThomasWaldmann 2004-08-04 08:33:36

Of course we need to see more options, I just don't want to invest too much time in this if people are happy with the existing situation. I will try the mailing list and continue the work after JürgenHermann respond. -- NirSoffer 2004-08-04 12:29:38

{{{On IRC: from a "latin american/chilean/personal" point of view... it looks like a man in sexual need, coviring his "parts" and greeting. }}}

---

Following the "simplicity" idea -which I really like- I dared to make these proposals, using red an white, and a round background.

So, one normal size and small size view. When an image is simple, it can look exactly the same, no matter what size.

Red Circle

mhz_red_big.png mhz_red_small.png 4

-- MauricioHernandez 2004-11-24 22:07:27

hmmm, how about double-m?

Maybe the colors were chosen to match 'modern' theme by Nir. Don't know, but I am sure someone with graphics knowledge can make any of these ideas look lot beter if we give enough arguments.

Double M

mhz_2m_big.png

mhz_2m_small.png 5

-- MauricioHernandez 2004-11-24 23:13:21

Moin Balloon

moinmoin_mgreen.gif 6

-- JamesGreen

Dialog Balloon

mm-dialogue.png 7

This is the most interesting and original idea - remove the letters and add a MoinMoin text on the side, and its can be really nice. -- NirSoffer 2005-05-24 09:58:35

White Rounded Rectangle Dialog Balloon with Text

moin-moin-balloon.png 8

Comics Dialog Balloon

Ok, something bolder while I'm at it. Maybe a little too over the top but I like it... (my explaination is below, read after getting your own fresh opinion of it) -- JamesGreen

mm_pop_example.png 9

mm_pop_color.gif

mm_pop.png

mm_pop_colors.png

I really love this one! Could you make a variant that replaces each M by Moin? -- FlorianFesti 2004-12-03 18:06:31

I like this one a lot. Great job James! :-) -- EM 2004-11-30 / 15:31.

My own comments added...what I was going for was keeping the "moin moin!" phrase going in your head, like I think of whenever I see the old logo. The weird lines at the bottom are supposed to be thought bubble lines, although if this gets seriously considered I would rework it to improve it. My inspiration was the "POW!" "BAM!" expressions from old American comics, although just my memory of them as I didn't use any particular source. For very small representations, such as favicon, I would change it to maybe just be one "m", one thought line, just generally try to simplify it while keeping the shape recognizeable. Also, I think the colors work well since you just have a primary color and then a variation on the same color, making it easy to adapt to any other color. -- JamesGreen

This looks really good. I would vote for this immediately, but I think it's too much comic-style, and thus not suitable people who look for something more professional. I'm quite sure, though, that this can be improved by either taking the thought-lines away (as you suggest yourself), or by removing the exclamation mark. I tried to pull it out myself. Being not very good at this, the image is low quality, but it's enough to judge. moin_plagiate.png I hope James himself can provide us with a better version. -- FabianKreutz 2005-05-24

The problem with this is just too much - too much comics, too much elements, too much noise, too much sources. The concept of a dialog lost completely. -- NirSoffer 2005-05-24 09:58:35

I like a lot of the logos, but what about something like moin2 or m2 instead of using double m or writing moin twice? -- EricDavis

I like this is happening, however, I invite you all to relax just a little and think:

My point is... Don't we need certain minimum parameters to be set before working on Moin logos so that designers, developers, users, etc., can let their imagination flow over common basis? and then we can judge which is the Best logo that will represent EXACTLY what we're looking for.

-- MauricioHernandez 2004-12-01 01:59:17

Good idea, I'll hold off on new suggestions until there is a concensus on these issues. (or there is a concensus not to adhere to these guidelines--whatever, I'm just an artist) -- JamesGreen

"MoinMoin" is a greeting (see MoinMoinEtymology). We should stress this greeting character of the name in our logo. This can by simply done by keeping the exclamation mark. The greeting represents the openness of the WikiWay and invitation to everyone to join.

IMHO there should not be a comma between the two moins. I am not an expert but I think it is simply wrong.

I like the logos that play with the ambiguity of the term "MoinMoin": It can be seen as single greeting and as a dialog between two persons. ("MoinMoin!" or A:"Moin! B:"Moin!")

I like the pop-logo because it is very informal (as our old logo). Wikis are very informal, too. I think to logo should not look too serious.

I also like that it expresses speach/communication and some kind of motion/action which I consider important aspects of wikis.

I also think that the logo should contain the full name not only one or two Ms. Most people will not know MoinMoin and won't understand MM as MoinMoin. As MoinMoin still is a small software projekt we cannot expect people to know our name. It should be part of our logo. Googling for "MoinMoin" leads to our website a logo without the name won't.

-- FlorianFesti 2004-12-01 12:20:21

Btw: Use Google image search for "logo" to get some more examples of logos.

I like the Pop logo. What about just adding the full name to it in small print somewhere, perhaps the word Moin nestled in between the 1st and 2nd callouts, and then again between the 2nd and 3rd? Nothing too obvious (perhaps even just a light gray color), but enough to help those who don't know what MM stands for.

The most interesting idea is the double source baloon. The last logo with the three sources balloon lost that idea and is too crowded and its not clear, even in bigger size. It will be unreadable in small size. I think we should check simple name-logo like Plone use.

plone.jpg

Moin! should be just fine, either alone or in that two sources balloon. I would not make it too much "comics".

About what MauricioHernandez wrote, MoinMoin is a community tool, a friendly environment for people to share and communicate.

-- NirSoffer 2004-12-02 20:32:13

My 2 cents, to add to the confusion, in small and big (maybe too much) size. BTW, we are using the Modern theme colors, but there is no need. Maybe something warmer will be more like the MoinMoin spirit. -- EduardoMercovich 2004-12-03 17:22:20

Dialog Balloon with Text

mm-dialogue-2.png 10

While I really like the artful draft by JamesGreen I think that you are missing one point. We are talking about two things:

  1. MoinMoin - a WikiWiki engine (my favorite ;-)

  2. The basic ideas of WikiWiki (community, freedom, ease of use) that are much older and wider than just MoinMoin

Thus I believe that if we insist in having text instead of just a letter, then the text should include some reference to "Wiki".

-- RobertSeeger 2005-01-25 18:29:11 

______  ___     _____       ______  ___     _____
___   |/  /________(_)_________   |/  /________(_)______
__  /|_/ /_  __ \_  /__  __ \_  /|_/ /_  __ \_  /__  __ \
_  /  / / / /_/ /  / _  / / /  /  / / / /_/ /  / _  / / /
/_/  /_/  \____//_/  /_/ /_//_/  /_/  \____//_/  /_/ /_/

Parenthesis Moin

I have always thought simple stuff is better than too complicated ones, esp. when talking about image.

I know MoinMoin is the official name, but Moin is already nonsense in Chile and many non-german like countries, therefore I always say to people "Use Moin wiki" because MoinMoin wiki is just too long. I am aware of the similar meanings Moin has for some few countries, but again, as in my country has zero possible meaning, I formaly propose to use "moin" for everyday use.(and continue using MoinMoin for the project name)

I have no idea about how to use applications such as Gimp or similar, but even if I did, I'd probably get to the same point: Moin inside parenthesis.

Why?

Which?

moin_parenthesis.png 11

For me, I prefer just 1 color (like Kde's current logo) but maybe 2 colors is ok. 3 would be too much! I would go for the light blue (moin) as is similar to current Modern theme.

-- MauricioHernandez 2005-04-27 03:03:27

Retread

I think a lot of people in this discussion don't quite understand what logos, branding, etc. is all about. I dealt with this over three years ago with the last wiki software I deployed widely, where we actually hired a professional identity and branding artist to produce a comprehensive style for our own use and then donated it to the developers, and they're still discussing it, but perhaps the Moin devs will be more reasonable after only just over a year of discussions. :)

The current Moin guy is a mascot. It's not a logo. A mascot is like the BSD daemon and Tux the penguin. A logo is like the Apple apple and the Nike swoosh; it's a symbol, an emblem, a graphical mark.

Many of the previous designers I've worked with believe the best logos are just emblems, ones that don't use letters or a stylized rendering of the name in them. It makes it internationally compatible, and it lets you do other things with it, set up an identity independent of the original product or company.

Wikipedia has a very nice article about it: Logo

The crux of the arguments with my previous wiki logo and image design efforts, and the same ones that keep coming up here, is the idea that the logo must convey the "essence of wiki" or "collaboration and sharing and co-authorship and community" and all of that. It's a wonderful notion, but it's wrong.

The Nike swoosh and the silver Apple apple do not convey premier athleticism or fashionable computing. These are the properties we apply to them in our heads based on marketing campaigns and our experiences with the products produced with that mark on them. The marks themselves do not display these properties.

The logo only needs to be a simple, memorable symbol that can stand in for the full name of the product or brand. A conveniently topical article on the Small Business Branding blog sums it up nicely enough for me to duplicate it in its entirety:

JamesGreen's efforts are probably closest to this concept thus far. I like his original speech bubble much better than his "action packed" revamp. I think two speech bubbles overlapping, the tails combining to make a subtle, stylized "M" would be nice to see, the "M" being very subtle and almost not even there, just like the "hidden" arrow in the FedEx logo.

Alternately, perhaps three line drawings of writing implements, such as a pencil, pen and quill overlapping to make a probably less-subtle "M", the shadows making the second "M." Or perhaps just a stylized line drawing of a pencil would do, perhaps the metal ribbing around the eraser could be a subtle "M." MoinMoin is less about "talking" than, say, forum software would be, so perhaps speech bubbles are not the right conveyance.

I'm not an identity and branding consultant, I'm just throwing these out there, but I have had to deal with this quite a bit.

Either way, the name of the software is "MoinMoin" and if the logo must be a stylized word mark, then it should not be just "Moin," it should be "Moin Moin" or "MoinMoin" or the "MM" abbreviation. That's the name of the software, and to have the mark of trade be anything other than that will only lead to confusion in the wider marketplace. The fact that the word "Moin" has no meaning in most languages is irrelevant: "McDonald's" and "Nike" and "Microsoft" have no meanings either.

Just two cents from someone who's been there.

-- VitoMiliano, April 27, 2005

MoinMoin bubbles

moinmoin_bubbles.png 12

This idea was present before Vito's input, so I just had to place it.

It's about MoinMoin words inside 2 people's dialog bubbles. Bubbles or circles, because all collaboration/community effort I imagine is 'round'. Colors? we could discuss about it, np.

-- MauricioHernandez 2005-04-27 15:29:18

MoinMoin Nodes

Moin! greeting, Moin nodes, Moin connected to another Moin, wikiwikiweb

We all have built the MoinMoin community, so here we are...

Another Built Moin

-- MauricioHernandez 2005-05-19 05:31:09

M Nodes in a Circle

Entry 15 Final

james_moin_variations.png
james_moin_header.png

Additional source files:

If you need anything, email me <james DOT green AT ubisoft DOT com>, since I don't check here often.

-- JamesGreen

(old discussion follows)

It ended up looking like the old SGI logo to me, but since it's not really used anymore the likness isn't a big issue I think. I was trying to make something that's simple, graphic, but still has an "M" in it. Works in black and white, scales well in my opinion, and "feels" like something that could be the MoinMoin logo. To me at least.

Please note that I have no vested interest in any particular logo. I've used MoinMoin over the years, and appreciate the work that went into it. I'd like to contribute what I can to the project, and this is one of the few ways I'm able to, so this is why I'm posting stuff. My submissions are based on what I've read here and what people seem to want, or at least my understanding of it. Not an easy thing that's for sure. ;)

--JamesGreen

I think James' latest tweaks, with the thinner lines and showing different colored backgrounds (but leaving the "M" nodes in white and grey for simplicity) are exactly what makes a good logo:

I think it's great, and should be adopted. --VitoMiliano

I'm sorry but I don't like this last logo:

In general, I look for a very simple and strong image, one that you can describe with few words. To make this a stronger image, the round background should be removed. Round is not about community - its about roundness. As Vito said, the logo does not have to have all the meanings of a wiki, just a nice image that people will attach the meanings later.

The most interesting idea in this page is the two speakers balloon - with or without any text. Maybe try this direction. If James like to develop this idea, he can make few alternatives without a background, but I'm not sure if this is the direction. I think we should also try the direction of simple name logo. A MoinMoin designed in an interesting way.

-- NirSoffer 2005-05-23 09:47:34

Moin Cube

povraycube1.png

povraycube2.png

povraycube3.png

16

Resemble the logo 15 idea in povray.

17

dialog-balloon-logo.png

dialog-balloon-powered.png

dialog-balloon-favicon.png

A variation on James dialog balloon, with MoinMoin text. Works in any size.

Pond MoinMoin

18

Played around with MoinMoin being a reflection. --JouniAiraksinen

pondmoinmoin1.gif

pondmoinmoin3.gif

pondmoinmoin2.gif

Interesting, but much too big. Please display the images in a typical setup. For site header, the logo should no more then 40-50 pixels. The favicon can work nice but not in that low contrast - it must be clear. Maybe it can have 2 backgrounds colors that create the "reflection". Same favicon can be used in the powered by image.

The interesting concept here is the reflection - and the favicon and the other reflected M show it nicely - there is no need to put double 'moin' in that image, since it can't be the only element in the logo. The name MoinMoin must appear in big readable type, it can't be part of the reflection. That leave the reflected M as the real image near the text.

pondmoimoinicons.gif

pondmoimoiniconheader.gif

I understand the logos presented are big (just to give you idea of details), but size can be anything. Same goes for colors, black and white, blue and white, what suits. Infact it should work as vector too, so size can be from wallsized banner to 16x16 favicon, and eps logo would be black and white anyway and colored to colors needed (as you can see the ice beveled version). --JouniAiraksinen

This version is very good - the colors are just right. Maybe more or less blue background is needed, but the reflection effect is really great. Maybe you like to work on that balloon (#17)? currently its only placed where it should be, but not more than that. -- NirSoffer 2005-05-24 14:55:28

Shared Writing MoinMoin

19

I think the m things alone don't say what we are, round m things look like a common candy around here (if they said S they'd be fruit flavor, M are chocolare), and the cartoon ideas are cute but maybe too cute. I appreciate that they're trying to imply shared messages though. I have a broader concept of a logo that contains two "people" figures each writing moin on some shared material. I had done some art for classroom plans once, so this is only one possible use of that idea:

moinlogo-edu.png

As it is greyscale currently it can be easily colorized. In the same line of concept, a standing stick-man and a stickperson sitting at a business desk could be corporate, to this one's educational air. Two hands both writing on paper are possible too, but I stopped before having Escher's Hand Drawing Hand draw moin.

Cube M

20

cube-m.jpg

This was started from on the cube idea of James node logo (#15). It can be accepted better then the comics style logos. -- NirSoffer 2005-05-26 00:38:10

Moin upside-down

21

moin_reflecting.png

moin_reflecting.svg

Absolutely "inspired" by the #18 logo proposal. Again, my problem is I know zero about graphics and I know this idea could be very improved by someone with the needed skills. -- MauricioHernandez 2005-05-26 06:58:56

This is not isnpired by #18, it is #18 alternatives, but none of them is better then #18. The reflection idea is not emphasized by using different shape and specially when rotating the image.

I like how the rotated inverted -whatever- "m" resembles a "w". So we have MoinMoin and WikiWiki. Besides, it looks like more balanced than #18. I like it!

By the way, my idea was to use the "Ubuntu" logo font but I could not get it, and I hope you can picture it. -- MauricioHernandez 2005-05-28 04:17:26

I really don't like the hostile intent of the unsigned negative comments here. I quite like these logos, even if they are "just alternatives to #18". If colour is an issue for some people, perhaps the logo could be adapted for some of the more popular themes. -- JasonStirling 2005-09-18 00:39:46

Moin Kite

22

moin_kite.png

moin_kite.svg

Well, again, kite but in "ubuntu's" m's. -- MauricioHernandez 2005-06-06 23:52:30 Does this look better?

This is a more ideal version, IMHO, a clearer idea of what I want or look for. Please improve it if you like it. -- MauricioHernandez 2005-05-29 05:01:32

If it were my decission, i'd go with this in black and orange

Moin Ninja

23

moin_ninja.png

moin_ninja.svg

A similar concept to one of the above :) -- MauricioHernandez 2005-05-29 05:01:32

Moin Tu

24

moin_tu.png

moin_tu.svg

Well, this is the closest to what a MoinMoin logo would make me happy :) Again, feel free to improve it if you like it and provide feedback. Oh, and please VOTE for IT! :D -- MauricioHernandez 2005-05-30 05:35:22

General discussion

I am still undecided between 1, 9 and 15.

-- ThomasWaldmann 2005-06-05 15:47:31

If 1 is not a logo, 9 too funny for the project and 15 looks like (bad) CAD logo, then vote for others. Anyway, I don't think we should choose any of the options here, but think in which direction are we going. You can see only few directions here, most of the offers are alternatives on other logos. -- NirSoffer 2005-06-05 16:11:43

Vote

Many suggestions, many opinions, many nice logos. But which one looks good to you? The community voted.

None of the alternative here is final. The purpose of the vote is to see what direction is preferred by most users of this wiki. The vote will be closed when the rate of votes decayed to the necessary extent.

1

{*}

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

{*} {*} {*} {*} {*} {*} {*} {*}

10

11

12

13

{*}

14

15

{*} {*} {*} {*} {*} {*} {*} {*} {*}

16

17

{*} {*} {*}

18

{*} {*} {*}

19

20

{*}

21

22

{*} {*} {*} {*} {*} {*}

23

24

{*} {*}

So it looks like 15, 9 and 22 were the most favored ones. Logo creators, esp. the winner no. 15, please try to supply the logo files in the sizes described by Nir above.

OK, here's my (late) vote:

  1. I like 18 a lot, but not the one with the waves (too playful), but the simple blue one. very scaleable, too. (pondmoimoinicons.gif)
  2. 21 + 22 are quite similar and ok, too.

  3. 15 is surely nice and one of the best more complex ones, but if you're visually impaired, you favour a) simple designs and b) clear contrast & bright colours.

  4. 18 + 21 have the advantage of most probably working on any background (esp. black AND white); if you keep the white in 22, it'll look bad on black; if you make it transparent, it might look bad.

-- JürgenHermann 2005-07-25 09:37:53

MoinMoin: MoinDev/MoinMoinLogo (last edited 2007-10-29 19:11:43 by localhost)