MoinMoin: MoinMoinChat/Logs/moin-dev/2006-08-02

2006-08-02T08:46:58  <ThomasWaldmann> moin
2006-08-02T08:58:35  <Kepplar> moin
2006-08-02T16:29:57  * Kepplar glares at doctags in Page
2006-08-02T16:30:02  <Kepplar> who the hell wrote this?
2006-08-02T16:30:09  <Kepplar> two functions have identical doctags
2006-08-02T16:46:25  <ThomasWaldmann> Kepplar: maybe c&p error, you can fix it
2006-08-02T16:53:33  <Kepplar> no need to, im removing all this code :)
2006-08-02T16:53:34  <Kepplar> oh
2006-08-02T16:53:37  <Kepplar> whats the "root page"
2006-08-02T16:53:43  <Kepplar> its not documented at all in Page
2006-08-02T16:57:21  <ThomasWaldmann> Kepplar: it is a concept we have already talked about 3w ago :)
2006-08-02T16:57:38  <ThomasWaldmann> we don't really use it yet, it is all flat
2006-08-02T16:59:21  <Kepplar> so I can remove it :)?
2006-08-02T16:59:37  <Kepplar> if we take it off flat
2006-08-02T16:59:42  <Kepplar> instead of a "rootpage=0" crap
2006-08-02T16:59:46  <Kepplar> we can just place it in a Rubik
2006-08-02T16:59:47  <Kepplar> \o/
2006-08-02T17:00:01  <Kepplar> thus the root rubik's payload is the root page :)
2006-08-02T17:11:12  <ThomasWaldmann> you can remove it
2006-08-02T17:11:27  <ThomasWaldmann> makes it much simpler :)
2006-08-02T17:15:49  * Kepplar finds it hard to work out whats being called and why its been designed to be externally called if so
2006-08-02T17:18:21  <Kepplar> strange thing is these metods appear to be "public" yet they all seem to return paths
2006-08-02T17:18:33  <Kepplar> why would anything outwside page need a path of a page O_o
2006-08-02T17:19:25  <ThomasWaldmann> Kepplar: AttachFile code
2006-08-02T17:19:47  <Kepplar> it called directly by atachfile code or a third party :S?
2006-08-02T17:19:52  <ThomasWaldmann> and if you want to rewrite that stuff, maybe rather look at the FS than the current code
2006-08-02T17:20:17  <Kepplar> how would that help?
2006-08-02T17:20:30  <ThomasWaldmann> AttachFile needs to up/download to the attachments directory below the page directory
2006-08-02T17:20:58  <Kepplar> yea thats fine, ill change that when  i redo attachfile
2006-08-02T17:21:07  <ThomasWaldmann> you are maybe less confused then by less looking at unused code only needed for hierarchical pages
2006-08-02T17:21:09  <Kepplar> just hoped the path wasnt requested by a third party and passed on :)
2006-08-02T17:30:29  <xorAxAx> Kepplar: oh, paths are needed quite often
2006-08-02T17:30:44  <xorAxAx> Kepplar: e.g. my sync code stores a data file in the page directory
2006-08-02T17:32:55  <Kepplar> er
2006-08-02T17:32:57  <Kepplar> what data file?
2006-08-02T17:33:03  <Kepplar> storage ISNT designed to hand out paths
2006-08-02T17:33:04  <Kepplar> it cant
2006-08-02T17:33:38  <Kepplar> 100% not possible, everything must be adapted to send things to it to store
2006-08-02T17:33:51  <Kepplar> because other storage implementations wont store to disk
2006-08-02T17:33:56  <Kepplar> and thus wont have a path
2006-08-02T17:34:24  <Kepplar> in a few hours im going to sit there with acl, user, Page, grep every refereince to it in the code
2006-08-02T17:34:28  <Kepplar> map out what needs migrating
2006-08-02T17:34:32  <Kepplar> and migrate everything
2006-08-02T17:34:50  <Kepplar> i have to as it wants information that simply cannot be provided
2006-08-02T17:35:38  <Kepplar> the only thing that should *Ever* be physically accessing the stored data is the storage implementation
2006-08-02T17:35:46  <Kepplar> from now on :)
2006-08-02T17:36:33  <xorAxAx> Kepplar: of course
2006-08-02T17:36:36  <xorAxAx> Kepplar: the tags file
2006-08-02T17:36:45  <Kepplar> tags file?
2006-08-02T17:36:46  <xorAxAx> something which should go into the metadatastorage system
2006-08-02T17:36:55  <xorAxAx> storing the tags that are necessary for sync
2006-08-02T17:37:05  <Kepplar> wikiname tags?
2006-08-02T17:37:42  <Kepplar> well yes, how people use storage is up to them =)
2006-08-02T17:40:48  <xorAxAx> no, tags that mark merge points
2006-08-02T17:42:01  <Kepplar> i havent looked into that at all so I dont know much
2006-08-02T17:42:09  <xorAxAx> sure
2006-08-02T17:42:34  <xorAxAx> dont worry about it
2006-08-02T17:42:46  <xorAxAx> if i can store blobs, it should be o
2006-08-02T17:42:47  <xorAxAx> k
2006-08-02T17:43:07  <Kepplar> lol
2006-08-02T20:28:53  <Kepplar> I'm creating a migration note document with result of greping all core storage module's and where they are used (each function)
2006-08-02T20:29:11  <Kepplar> atm it seems that only ones outside my control are from xmlrpc
2006-08-02T20:54:34  <Kepplar> there must be an better tool then grep here
2006-08-02T20:54:46  <Kepplar> when methodd are called execute and size i have no change in hell in working it out
2006-08-02T20:54:50  <Kepplar> :/
2006-08-02T20:54:51  <Kepplar> anyone have any ideas
2006-08-02T21:04:53  <Andrew> hi
2006-08-02T21:05:05  <Kepplar> hi
2006-08-02T21:06:45  <Andrew> are the google summer activities still ongoing?
2006-08-02T21:06:51  <Kepplar> yes
2006-08-02T21:07:04  <Andrew> how long they will take?
2006-08-02T21:07:08  <Kepplar> 3.5 weeks
2006-08-02T21:09:50  <Andrew> i wrote http://moinmoin.wikiwikiweb.de/FeatureRequests/FeatureRequestBusiness
2006-08-02T21:10:19  <Andrew> I would like to catch up the current activities - and make a check of what's needed and what will be provided
2006-08-02T21:10:50  <Andrew> I had unfortunatly a lot of work which hold me back from writing more specs
2006-08-02T21:11:33  <Kepplar> Ok
2006-08-02T21:13:08  <Kepplar> I can tell you for free we're way off (prehaps a year) of putting metadata in a different location to the wiki item :/
2006-08-02T21:13:58  <Kepplar> can you please explain "mirror pages" in more detail
2006-08-02T21:15:40  <Andrew> mirror pages represent data/records which are stored in a external database
2006-08-02T21:16:25  <Andrew> I'm trying to marry MoinMoin with data which is highly structured
2006-08-02T21:16:29  <Kepplar> well
2006-08-02T21:16:37  <Kepplar> the new storage layer will have a seperate plugin api
2006-08-02T21:16:47  <Kepplar> and will support flatfile, hg, cvs, database backends
2006-08-02T21:17:07  <Andrew> the question is: can the same wiki have different storage providers? or just one?
2006-08-02T21:17:08  <Andrew> :-)
2006-08-02T21:17:22  <Kepplar> plan is different
2006-08-02T21:17:26  <Kepplar> initally just the one
2006-08-02T21:17:40  <Kepplar> because with a single name space a lookup to where its located will be problematic
2006-08-02T21:18:04  <Kepplar> We have a new datastructure coming in which might help us out.
2006-08-02T21:18:06  <Andrew> I would bet that what I want is semantically a bit different from the typical "storage provider" idea
2006-08-02T21:18:19  <Kepplar> Theorectically we could assign subpages using the page name itself as a guide to where its located
2006-08-02T21:18:22  <Andrew> but we'll have to check
2006-08-02T21:18:28  <Kepplar> storage provider?
2006-08-02T21:18:51  <Andrew> have a abstract layer which takes care abouth the persistence of the objects you are dealing with
2006-08-02T21:19:15  <Kepplar> with the individual storage implimentation hidden underneath it?
2006-08-02T21:19:20  <Andrew> yep
2006-08-02T21:19:22  <Kepplar> yea
2006-08-02T21:19:27  <Kepplar> thats precisely what i'm doing :)
2006-08-02T21:19:53  <Andrew> my idea is to represent (additionally) "foreign" objects as wiki pages which are - in reality - are not wiki pages
2006-08-02T21:20:02  <Kepplar> storage layer with a 1.5 compat flatfile plugin is actually done, its mostly tested and i'm intergrating it into 1.6 atm
2006-08-02T21:20:17  <Kepplar> what do you think a wiki page is?
2006-08-02T21:20:34  <Andrew> more or less a "page" - unstructured text data
2006-08-02T21:20:54  <Kepplar> the abstract storage engine treats all stored items as an "Item", with everything inheriting from it, a page, an attachment, a user, anything
2006-08-02T21:21:00  <Andrew> parsable, with history entries (deltas), but without any "user defined" additional data
2006-08-02T21:21:20  <Kepplar> user defined additional data?
2006-08-02T21:21:25  <Andrew> :-)
2006-08-02T21:21:29  <Kepplar> you dont need user defined additional data
2006-08-02T21:21:35  <Andrew> this is the point where a spec would be quite helpful
2006-08-02T21:21:50  <Andrew> not for the "wiki way" - but for what I have in mind, you need it - believe me :-))
2006-08-02T21:22:14  <Andrew> but mirror pages aren't my highest priority
2006-08-02T21:22:18  <Andrew> meta data *is*
2006-08-02T21:22:29  <Andrew> why is meta data "a year" off?
2006-08-02T21:22:31  <Kepplar> Well anything about storage is my area
2006-08-02T21:22:39  <Kepplar> we have metadata
2006-08-02T21:22:42  <Andrew> then I'm talking to the right man :-)
2006-08-02T21:22:48  <Kepplar> but its currently tied to the page data
2006-08-02T21:22:58  <Kepplar> no necceserily in the identical place
2006-08-02T21:23:06  <Andrew> ?
2006-08-02T21:23:13  <Kepplar> but handled by the same storage engine
2006-08-02T21:23:27  <Andrew> what's the problem having meta data associated to a page?
2006-08-02T21:23:38  <Kepplar> technically the only way to solve your problem is to write a custom storage engine that seperates metadata out and saves it to a different medium
2006-08-02T21:23:44  <Kepplar> it is
2006-08-02T21:24:00  <Kepplar> but you were wanting it on a separate storage location completly
2006-08-02T21:24:39  <Andrew> hmmm... either I wrote something wrong oder my FR is misunderstood
2006-08-02T21:24:48  <Andrew> where do you read that I want to have the meta data seperatly?
2006-08-02T21:25:46  <Kepplar> . Additionally it may be useful in later versions to retrieve the definition from XML files or databases (mysql) which arenot write-accessible from the wiki itself
2006-08-02T21:25:58  <Kepplar> sorry
2006-08-02T21:26:01  <Kepplar> my bad im with you now
2006-08-02T21:26:11  <Kepplar> hmm
2006-08-02T21:26:20  <Kepplar> the usage of metadata and its definitions isnt in my scope
2006-08-02T21:26:27  <Kepplar> at least not right now
2006-08-02T21:26:46  <Andrew> the "definitions" I talk about are focused on web forms - not on the storage of the data itself
2006-08-02T21:27:42  <Kepplar> yea
2006-08-02T21:27:49  <Kepplar> hmm
2006-08-02T21:28:04  <Kepplar> afk for a while - need to get dinner
2006-08-02T21:28:11  <Andrew> fine :-)
2006-08-02T21:28:15  <Andrew> good appetite
2006-08-02T21:44:05  <xorAxAx> Andrew: note that virtualpages solve your external storage requirement
2006-08-02T21:44:23  <xorAxAx> Andrew: they are the base of gauss, the patent db. (maybe i have already told you that, no idea :))
2006-08-02T21:44:52  <xorAxAx> but its an evil hack and i am sure that Kepplar will come up with an infrastructure that is more suitable to this kind of requirement
2006-08-02T21:44:55  <Andrew> probably not - I would remember, I believe
2006-08-02T21:44:57  <Andrew> :-)
2006-08-02T21:45:19  <xorAxAx> i think it is http://gauss.ffii.org
2006-08-02T21:45:41  <xorAxAx> they display each patent (postgresql db row) as a wiki page
2006-08-02T21:45:43  <Andrew> is gauss a moinmoin wiki?
2006-08-02T21:45:48  <xorAxAx> yes
2006-08-02T21:45:54  <xorAxAx> using an OSS patch
2006-08-02T21:45:58  <xorAxAx> called virtualpages
2006-08-02T21:46:21  <Andrew> do they mix the "normal" wiki pages with data out of the postgre sql database?
2006-08-02T21:46:55  <Andrew> just scanned the source which is on the moinmoin pages
2006-08-02T21:47:04  <Andrew> what's missing is the representation with wiki forms
2006-08-02T21:47:20  <Andrew> of course :-) - since web forms aren't avaiable :-))
2006-08-02T21:48:47  <xorAxAx> yes, they mix them. subpages of the patents are normal wiki pages, and used as comment pages etc.
2006-08-02T21:48:53  <xorAxAx> yep, forms are not there
2006-08-02T21:49:16  <Andrew> it would be at least some starting point :-)
2006-08-02T21:49:49  <Andrew> to be true: I have currently the possibility to make a proof-of-concept for the operations departement of a large mobile company in Germany
2006-08-02T21:50:11  <Andrew> I "just" need metadata, webforms and I could introduce MoinMoin there *sigh*
2006-08-02T21:50:27  <Andrew> since I'll have to produce the stuff in the next days I'll probably build the showcase with twiki
2006-08-02T21:50:30  <Andrew> *frustrated*
2006-08-02T21:51:21  * Andrew gets a beer
2006-08-02T21:53:37  <xorAxAx> i dont see a problem with that ...
2006-08-02T21:53:49  <xorAxAx> given that you already know twiki very well
2006-08-02T21:53:58  <xorAxAx> and dont have to invest too much time into the showcase
2006-08-02T21:54:01  <xorAxAx> because of that
2006-08-02T21:54:16  <Andrew> I *know* twiki quite well :-)
2006-08-02T21:54:24  <Andrew> even did a bit of perl hacking *shudder* :-)
2006-08-02T21:54:57  <Andrew> but I know the colleagues - if they like it they'll probably hard to convince to switch to moinmoin
2006-08-02T21:55:48  <xorAxAx> just s/TWiki/MoinMoin 2.0/ everywhere ;-)
2006-08-02T21:56:17  <Andrew> ;-) *laugh*