MoinMoin: MoinMoinChat/Logs/moin-dev/2007-03-20

2007-03-20T13:00:26  <ThomasWaldmann> some xml geek here?
2007-03-20T13:02:08  <ThomasWaldmann> moin needs pyxml for some stuff (action rss_rc, GUI editor converter) because the xml libs were (are?) broken
2007-03-20T13:02:43  <xorAxAx> yes
2007-03-20T13:02:55  <ThomasWaldmann> i read some thread yesterday about pyxml bug fixes were also fixed in python stdlib
2007-03-20T13:02:55  <xorAxAx> they render None as namespace name if there is no namespace
2007-03-20T13:03:11  <xorAxAx> thats the RSS issue at least
2007-03-20T13:03:39  <ThomasWaldmann> so the question is since what python version and whether we could live without pyxml somehow
2007-03-20T13:04:03  <ThomasWaldmann> the windows people already have a problem because there is no 2.5 pyxml to download for them
2007-03-20T13:04:27  <ThomasWaldmann> while 0.8.4 installed from src works for py 2.5 (on linux)
2007-03-20T21:06:41  <lanius> hei,what do you think about a module to access moinmoin via webdav?
2007-03-20T21:09:01  <xorAxAx> hi lanius
2007-03-20T21:09:10  <lanius> hi xorAxAx :-)a
2007-03-20T21:11:54  <lanius> how many applications did you have last year?
2007-03-20T21:15:53  <lanius> ThomasWaldmann: ping?
2007-03-20T21:17:05  <xorAxAx> lanius: around 10
2007-03-20T21:22:09  <lanius> so what do you think about a webdav access module?
2007-03-20T21:22:36  <lanius> something usefull or only buzz or completly useless
2007-03-20T21:26:00  <xorAxAx> lanius: hmm
2007-03-20T21:26:15  <xorAxAx> lanius: it would at least pair nicely with an editor
2007-03-20T21:26:30  <xorAxAx> i am not sure if it isnt too small for 3 months, though
2007-03-20T21:26:45  <lanius> oh, i don't think it would be too small, looked at the webdav spec yet?
2007-03-20T21:26:46  <xorAxAx> which methods does webdav usually have?
2007-03-20T21:26:52  <xorAxAx> not yet )
2007-03-20T21:27:02  <lanius> there is the webdav spec, about 80 sites
2007-03-20T21:27:08  <lanius> then there is the versioning extension
2007-03-20T21:27:13  <lanius> the access control extension
2007-03-20T21:27:15  <lanius> the search extension
2007-03-20T21:28:01  <xorAxAx> oh, cool
2007-03-20T21:28:08  <lanius> http://webdav.org/specs/rfc2518.html
2007-03-20T21:28:08  <xorAxAx> well, it always depends on the clients
2007-03-20T21:28:10  <lanius> that's the base
2007-03-20T21:28:14  <xorAxAx> which client implements all? :)
2007-03-20T21:28:20  <xorAxAx> or at least, more than the base
2007-03-20T21:28:35  <lanius> don't know, but the base would be the most important
2007-03-20T21:28:37  <lanius> than the versioning
2007-03-20T21:28:40  <lanius> than searching
2007-03-20T21:28:41  <xorAxAx> and which clients are mostly used, i just know windows and gnome-vfs
2007-03-20T21:28:52  <lanius> access control can always be managed by the standard http auth
2007-03-20T21:29:02  <lanius> konqueror, and some standalone programs
2007-03-20T21:29:07  <xorAxAx> moin doesnt have a standard http auth server yet
2007-03-20T21:29:16  <xorAxAx> konqueror is kioslave
2007-03-20T21:29:19  <lanius> yeah
2007-03-20T21:29:36  <xorAxAx> well, sounds like a nice task
2007-03-20T21:29:46  <xorAxAx> and it would allow people to use any graphical editor
2007-03-20T21:30:01  <xorAxAx> and esp. merge handling wont be easy
2007-03-20T21:30:19  <lanius> that's why webdav supports locking
2007-03-20T21:31:42  <xorAxAx> and no client implements it, i guess :)
2007-03-20T21:31:51  <xorAxAx> well, moin usually doesnt support hard locking
2007-03-20T21:32:03  <xorAxAx> and it prefers server side merging
2007-03-20T21:32:05  <lanius> locking is in the base specification
2007-03-20T21:32:20  <xorAxAx> but for that, you need some way to push the merge result to the client
2007-03-20T21:32:28  <xorAxAx> i think webdav might indeed be a lot of work
2007-03-20T21:32:33  <xorAxAx> esp. because of compat testing :)
2007-03-20T21:32:47  <lanius> yeah
2007-03-20T21:33:57  <lanius> another thing would be to access attachements, that would require to handle attachements like wiki pages
2007-03-20T21:34:27  <lanius> so really a lot, i don't think everthing could be implemented, but a good base
2007-03-20T21:35:44  <xorAxAx> yes
2007-03-20T21:36:07  <xorAxAx> well, accessing attachments is not really difficult, but a solid storage layer would simplify it
2007-03-20T21:36:21  <xorAxAx> dont you want to refactor it first? :-=)
2007-03-20T21:36:25  <xorAxAx> </joking>
2007-03-20T21:36:50  <lanius> hehe
2007-03-20T21:37:04  <xorAxAx> well, maybe you have seen last year's students
2007-03-20T21:37:24  <lanius> i haven't seen the students but the projects
2007-03-20T21:37:27  <xorAxAx> somebody of them attempted refactoring and flew away, by plane by using his money
2007-03-20T21:37:43  <xorAxAx> s/his/& SOC/
2007-03-20T21:37:53  <lanius> ^^
2007-03-20T21:38:13  <xorAxAx> he didnt pass and we couldnt merge any of his works because of lack of quality
2007-03-20T21:38:32  <xorAxAx> but you can have a look yourself on http://hg.thinkmo.de/
2007-03-20T21:38:36  <lanius> but he did get the moneyß
2007-03-20T21:38:42  <xorAxAx> only 2500/4500
2007-03-20T21:38:47  <lanius> i see
2007-03-20T21:38:54  <xorAxAx> because he promised that i will become better :)
2007-03-20T21:39:01  <xorAxAx> lanius: are you a student?
2007-03-20T21:39:05  <lanius> i am
2007-03-20T21:39:17  <xorAxAx> of what? germanistik? :)
2007-03-20T21:39:28  <lanius> no, information echnologie
2007-03-20T21:39:41  <xorAxAx> sounds like FH
2007-03-20T21:39:45  <lanius> BA
2007-03-20T21:39:53  <lanius> if you know about it
2007-03-20T21:40:57  <xorAxAx> ah
2007-03-20T21:41:10  <xorAxAx> southern germany?
2007-03-20T21:41:14  <lanius> yeah
2007-03-20T21:41:17  <lanius> mannheim
2007-03-20T21:41:29  <xorAxAx> but your ip is "Schulen der Bundesstadt Bonn"
2007-03-20T21:41:54  <lanius> hehe ^^ that's the server of my old school
2007-03-20T21:42:12  <lanius> i managed the server and network, so i still have access
2007-03-20T21:42:52  <xorAxAx> ah
2007-03-20T21:49:45  <lanius> is there currently any other support than filesystem storage?
2007-03-20T21:51:17  <xorAxAx> no, that should have been his goal
2007-03-20T21:52:02  <xorAxAx> instead, he invented his own data type - http://hg.thinkmo.de/moin/1.6-storage-a?f=75eadd3bea39;file=MoinMoin/util/rubik.py
2007-03-20T21:52:57  <lanius> interesting
2007-03-20T21:53:09  <xorAxAx> very funny at least
2007-03-20T21:53:21  <lanius> and creative
2007-03-20T21:53:51  <xorAxAx> yeah, he expressed his whole creativity in that data type
2007-03-20T22:08:26  <ThomasWaldmann> re
2007-03-20T22:09:16  <dreimark> MoinMoinBugs/1.6devStrangeACLbehaviour
2007-03-20T22:10:24  <dreimark> ThomasWaldmann:can you have please a look into that
2007-03-20T22:13:28  <ThomasWaldmann> not now
2007-03-20T22:17:08  <ThomasWaldmann> lanius: nobody asked for webdav support yet, iirc
2007-03-20T22:17:59  <ThomasWaldmann> so do you think there are people wanting to use it? how?
2007-03-20T22:19:14  <xorAxAx> ThomasWaldmann: pretty many users need such a feature
2007-03-20T22:19:23  <xorAxAx> it would make editmoin unnessary
2007-03-20T22:19:32  <ThomasWaldmann> name 3 :)
2007-03-20T22:19:57  <xorAxAx> niemeyer, myself and another guy who all use editmoin :)
2007-03-20T22:20:43  <ThomasWaldmann> and what would you do with a moin webdav server then?
2007-03-20T22:20:55  <Fabi_> xorAxAx, name 3 editors with webdav support
2007-03-20T22:21:35  <ThomasWaldmann> i just think we should first implement the stuff many people need and then the stuff few people need
2007-03-20T22:21:37  <xorAxAx> Fabi_: hmm, kedit, gnome-editor, emacs, vim, notepad
2007-03-20T22:22:07  <ThomasWaldmann> vim has webdav?
2007-03-20T22:22:09  <lanius> ThomasWaldmann: i have seen some request in the wiki, just search for it
2007-03-20T22:22:16  <xorAxAx> esp. the latter one because windows can transparently open files via webdav
2007-03-20T22:22:45  <xorAxAx> ThomasWaldmann: yes, via fuse or davfs
2007-03-20T22:22:55  <lanius> but it seems for me that it would really make sense to first implement the storage layer, otherwise there would be a lot of duplicate code from the Page
2007-03-20T22:22:58  <ThomasWaldmann> pffff
2007-03-20T22:22:58  <lanius> * classes
2007-03-20T22:23:04  <xorAxAx> yes, there are some discussions about webdav in the wiki
2007-03-20T22:23:18  <xorAxAx> btw, there are also wikirpc fuse bindings :)
2007-03-20T22:24:07  <xorAxAx> nevertheless i think that it is a nice idea and that we  should see what other students suggest
2007-03-20T22:24:37  <xorAxAx> lanius: hehe, dont you want to do the storage layer first? :)
2007-03-20T22:25:03  <xorAxAx> it cant be very hard if a uk industrial grade programmer failed to do so
2007-03-20T22:25:22  <xorAxAx> (thats how he called himself :))
2007-03-20T22:25:23  <lanius> what do you mean with industrial grade
2007-03-20T22:25:47  <lanius> whatever it means
2007-03-20T22:25:52  <xorAxAx> well, he explained that in the UK, in the industry they use hungarian notation
2007-03-20T22:28:40  <lanius> how many work did he spent?
2007-03-20T22:28:49  <xorAxAx> how to judge that?
2007-03-20T22:29:59  <ThomasWaldmann> at the beginning, I guess it was far too few work. at the end, he got to a higher speed, but didnt complete.
2007-03-20T22:30:30  <lanius> the problem is that this task is not really interesting ;)
2007-03-20T22:31:37  <ThomasWaldmann> lanius: this task is very interesting, but lots of work
2007-03-20T22:32:12  <ThomasWaldmann> it is interesting because it gives infrastructure for many other things. it opens doors.
2007-03-20T22:32:47  <lanius> yeah, that's rght, but it is not interesting from a technologie point of view, it's something that has be done x times before
2007-03-20T22:33:32  <xorAxAx> yeah :)
2007-03-20T22:33:39  <ThomasWaldmann> i guess webdav stuff also has been done x times before.
2007-03-20T22:34:04  <lanius> but it sounds cooler
2007-03-20T22:34:29  <ThomasWaldmann> major storage refactoring for moin has only been tried 2 times yet.
2007-03-20T22:34:52  <lanius> yeah for moin, but a storage api for different backends is something a lot of projects have
2007-03-20T22:35:50  <ThomasWaldmann> yeah, quite many softwares have something to store :)
2007-03-20T22:35:57  <lanius> :D
2007-03-20T22:37:26  <ThomasWaldmann> for moin, this stuff is coupled to metadata and mimetype features. before we have sane storage, we can't do much with that.
2007-03-20T22:38:06  <ThomasWaldmann> some people are really looking forward to having versioned "attachments" in the wiki
2007-03-20T22:38:32  <ThomasWaldmann> but we wont have that before storage api
2007-03-20T22:39:51  <lanius> jep
2007-03-20T22:40:46  <lanius> well, i have some experience in this area,worked on a simlilar project in the DLR (http://www.dlr.de/sc/Desktopdefault.aspx/tabid-1273/1756_read-3140/) the only question is if i wanna do that ^^
2007-03-20T22:41:55  <ThomasWaldmann> well, I guess it needs more enthusiasm :D
2007-03-20T22:42:21  <lanius> often the enthusiasm comes when you start working
2007-03-20T22:43:14  <xorAxAx> "oh, moin is full of nice source code" :-)
2007-03-20T22:43:35  <ThomasWaldmann> yeah, esp. AFTER storage refactoring :)
2007-03-20T22:43:42  <lanius> hehe
2007-03-20T22:48:16  <ThomasWaldmann> lanius: did you have a deeper look into moin yet?
2007-03-20T22:49:08  <lanius> something between low and deep, i installed some moin wikis, wrote an action, some looking into the code
2007-03-20T22:50:25  <ThomasWaldmann> Page.py, user.py, logfile/* - this is where the storage code currently is located
2007-03-20T22:50:37  <lanius> yeah, seen that, maybe also the cache
2007-03-20T22:51:50  <lanius> i'm used to python (google for pyxdg or svnchecker) and datamanagement
2007-03-20T22:54:36  <lanius> ok, have to go guys, see ya
2007-03-20T22:55:27  <ThomasWaldmann> we need a pep8-hgchecker :)
2007-03-20T22:55:44  <ThomasWaldmann> cu
2007-03-20T22:55:52  <lanius> hehe, just switch to subversion
2007-03-20T22:57:24  <ThomasWaldmann> i guess we won't :-P
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