MoinMoin: MoinMoinChat/Logs/moin-dev/2007-05-16

2007-05-16T00:06:24  <flowhase> re
2007-05-16T00:06:32  <flowhase> sorry for being gone :/
2007-05-16T00:06:49  <flowhase> i had kind of a nervous breakdown
2007-05-16T00:07:11  <flowhase> erm s/for being/i were
2007-05-16T00:07:30  <flowhase> i had to get sorted the last few days and i am back on track
2007-05-16T00:14:14  <xorAxAx> have you written down the discussion results? :)
2007-05-16T00:15:55  <flowhase> xorAxAx: some minutes ago :>
2007-05-16T00:16:00  <xorAxAx> cool :)
2007-05-16T00:16:23  <flowhase> i thought i better do this first and rejoin irc afterwards ;>
2007-05-16T00:17:00  <xorAxAx> hehe
2007-05-16T00:19:57  <ThomasWaldmann> flowhase: "one of the standard themes" that should be "modern" as the other two are less well maintained or have known problems
2007-05-16T00:20:19  <flowhase> ThomasWaldmann: well, i thought so :>
2007-05-16T00:20:30  <flowhase> it's also the most beautiful imo
2007-05-16T00:20:34  <ThomasWaldmann> (and welcome back :)
2007-05-16T00:24:12  * flowhase is currently trying to get more organized
2007-05-16T00:24:38  <ThomasWaldmann> flowhase: maybe add some ideas about how you want to test the theme output
2007-05-16T00:24:51  <flowhase> i now have a in/out-panel in my room, many todo-postits on it, rated after importance
2007-05-16T00:25:10  <flowhase> hmm
2007-05-16T00:25:48  <flowhase> actually that is a good question ... i don't really know how to test that (apart from browser/curl)
2007-05-16T00:26:06  <ThomasWaldmann> or at least WHAT you need to test
2007-05-16T00:26:50  <flowhase> hmm
2007-05-16T00:27:31  <flowhase> on a high level i think it is the html 4.01 compliance
2007-05-16T00:27:46  <ThomasWaldmann> "Make more use of the "C" in CSS (cascading)"  < very good idea
2007-05-16T00:27:53  <flowhase> on a very low level it's that everything important is rendered for sure
2007-05-16T00:27:59  <flowhase> hehe
2007-05-16T00:28:24  <flowhase> ffesti suggested that it would be terrific to have something like that :>
2007-05-16T00:29:09  <flowhase> and i am kind of used to reordering css, i like exploring css possibilities
2007-05-16T00:29:11  <ThomasWaldmann> i mean rather the non-immediately obvious things like browser compatibility, rtl support, different screen sizes, ...
2007-05-16T00:30:02  <ThomasWaldmann> (modern copes rather good with that, but you maybe won't produce identical output, just more or less equivalent output)
2007-05-16T00:30:20  <flowhase> yeah, i am pretty sure it will not be identical
2007-05-16T00:30:56  <flowhase> hmm
2007-05-16T00:30:57  <ThomasWaldmann> (and that's good, I guess :) just try to make sure no regressions happen.
2007-05-16T00:31:20  <ThomasWaldmann> another rather annoying thing to check is MSIE
2007-05-16T00:31:35  <flowhase> i will try the ie4linux package
2007-05-16T00:31:58  <flowhase> i also have a winxp install on my desktop box
2007-05-16T00:31:59  <ThomasWaldmann> i doesnt need to be perfect, but at least usable somehow
2007-05-16T00:32:12  <flowhase> (though i am mostly mobile around town and not in my room)
2007-05-16T00:32:28  <ThomasWaldmann> ie4l or vmware are maybe good for testing
2007-05-16T00:34:32  <flowhase> hmm, does linux vmware run on amd64?
2007-05-16T00:35:11  <ThomasWaldmann> 64bit mode?
2007-05-16T00:35:22  <flowhase> yes
2007-05-16T00:36:00  <flowhase> it needs kernel modules and those were binary iirc
2007-05-16T00:36:25  <ThomasWaldmann> hmm, i think i didnt try that yet, but looking at the target market, vmware server maybe SHOULD run
2007-05-16T00:37:08  <flowhase> ah .. totally forgot that this one is available for free too now
2007-05-16T00:37:35  <flowhase> well, i will find a way to manage the IE testing
2007-05-16T00:40:12  <ThomasWaldmann> http://blog.derjohn.de/snipsnap/space/start/2007-03-25/1
2007-05-16T00:44:50  <flowhase> argl, snipsnap
2007-05-16T00:44:50  <dreimark> flowhase: it does
2007-05-16T00:45:27  <ThomasWaldmann> flowhase: hit, loss, neglectable. what do you mean by "hit"? win?
2007-05-16T00:45:55  <flowhase> yes
2007-05-16T00:45:59  <flowhase> damnit
2007-05-16T00:46:06  <flowhase> now that you mention it :>
2007-05-16T02:19:33  <ThomasWaldmann> http://neil.fraser.name/software/mobwrite/
2007-05-16T11:25:48  <dreimark> ThomasWaldmann: SystemInfo is broken by your last change in 1.6 t.www.de if you are not logged in
2007-05-16T11:27:22  <dreimark> and if you are logged in
2007-05-16T14:56:32  <dreimark> oin
2007-05-16T15:01:57  <CIA-27> moin: Reimar Bauer <rb.proj AT googlemail DOT com> * 2066:6d1d337c5a76 1.6/MoinMoin/macro/SystemInfo.py: SystemInfo: fixed isSpiderAgent
2007-05-16T18:33:21  <dreimark> bbl
2007-05-16T21:09:12  <grzywacz> moin
2007-05-16T22:01:26  <neagulm> hello
2007-05-16T22:05:14  <dreimark> moin
2007-05-16T22:08:17  <dreimark> neagulm: I forwarded a bunch of mails from skip to you
2007-05-16T22:08:40  <neagulm> dreimark, am I'm reading them...
2007-05-16T22:21:22  <neagulm> dreimark, What is your opinion about Skip's proposal ?
2007-05-16T22:23:10  <neagulm> i have to leave #moin-dev for 30 seconds for switching computers. brb
2007-05-16T22:26:16  <neagulm> dreimark, i'm back
2007-05-16T22:27:21  <dreimark> neagulm: I've invited skip for a few minutes
2007-05-16T22:27:50  <neagulm> dreimark, i just received the email :)
2007-05-16T22:28:17  <dreimark> so he has no your email address in his adressbook too :)
2007-05-16T22:28:19  <dreimark> now
2007-05-16T22:30:04  <dreimark> neagulm: if they go on with changes into their codebase to make it easier to use it with others application its a important step
2007-05-16T22:31:16  <starshine> neagulm: if nobody mentioned it yet, red/green probably isn't a good color pair for bad/good identification
2007-05-16T22:31:37  <starshine> since r/g colorblindness is the most common kind of colorblindness
2007-05-16T22:32:02  <dreimark> starshine: its more important for men as womans :)
2007-05-16T22:33:26  <neagulm> dreimark, yes. But i don't know if the approach sugested by Skip is the right one for a wiki. I say that because we could use a normal wiki page for storing the suspect pages/revisions. Or some other "wikian" method
2007-05-16T22:35:35  <neagulm> dreimark, but in the end is does not really matter how we store them. By using SpamBayes to take care about this problem I have less to work :) So it would be ok for me.
2007-05-16T22:36:19  <dreimark> neagulm: I do prefer to use the wiki for that too. But we have to take care on the project spambayes too. interconnection is pretty fine
2007-05-16T22:37:26  <dreimark> may be we can have it configurable. He asked me to forward the mails so I think he's intereseted in your opinion too ;)
2007-05-16T22:38:25  <dreimark> There is currently no timetable when that changes are published
2007-05-16T22:46:28  <neagulm> dreimark, i'm thinking about this approach.
2007-05-16T22:48:29  <dreimark> starshine: any ideas about icons instead of only colors?
2007-05-16T22:49:47  <dreimark> e.g. increasing darth vader
2007-05-16T22:49:55  <dreimark> for spam
2007-05-16T22:50:36  <starshine> how many icons total?
2007-05-16T22:51:16  <starshine> you could have a paper, a crumpled paper, a burning crumbled paper, a radioactive trashbin with paper in it..
2007-05-16T22:51:57  <neagulm> :)
2007-05-16T22:52:44  <starshine> and a black skull with glowing eyes.
2007-05-16T22:53:08  <starshine> make its edge "shiny" so someone with dark theme can still see it.
2007-05-16T22:56:22  <dreimark> neagulm: how much?
2007-05-16T22:56:56  <skipm> neagulm, dreimark: hi
2007-05-16T22:57:01  <neagulm> dreimark, "how much" ?
2007-05-16T22:57:05  <neagulm> skipm, hello
2007-05-16T22:57:31  <skipm> neagulm, dreimark: i have about 30 minutes then have to catch a train
2007-05-16T22:57:57  <dreimark> starshine: minimum is three icons because one has to be undecided
2007-05-16T22:58:04  <dreimark> hi skipm
2007-05-16T22:58:46  <dreimark> skipm: one of the most important questions is when will this new interface be available ?
2007-05-16T22:58:54  <starshine> should there be any for scores-good?
2007-05-16T22:59:05  <dreimark> starshine: yes
2007-05-16T22:59:06  <starshine> paper with a pretty thing on it
2007-05-16T22:59:24  <starshine> scroll with a lil gold seal
2007-05-16T22:59:50  <dreimark> starshine: cool
2007-05-16T22:59:52  <starshine> for a total of 2 positive, one just-a-paper, and 4 grades of bad
2007-05-16T23:00:21  <neagulm> skipm, dreimark  what is your opinion about checking differences beetwen revisions ?
2007-05-16T23:00:40  <dreimark> neagulm: that is very important.
2007-05-16T23:01:04  <skipm> dreimark: ah the new core server with plugins? i took the pop3 proxy and ripped out the pop3 stuff last night.  Now I need to write a plugin for web apps
2007-05-16T23:01:39  <skipm> dreimark, neagulm: given that you'd maybe be client #1 or #2 how would you find it easiest to communicate with the plugin?
2007-05-16T23:03:13  <neagulm> skipm, in what context ?
2007-05-16T23:04:09  <dreimark> starshine: sounds good
2007-05-16T23:04:45  <dreimark> skipm: you are asking about the interface ?
2007-05-16T23:05:29  <skipm> dreimark: maybe i misunderstood your use of the word "interface".
2007-05-16T23:07:53  <skipm> dreimark: i thought you were asking about my idea for a standalone server with a (for example) XML-RPC or POP3 plugin to talk with
2007-05-16T23:09:10  <dreimark> skipm: ahh my fault, sorry
2007-05-16T23:12:19  <dreimark> skipm:xml-rpc we do use for several other implemetantions already
2007-05-16T23:12:48  <dreimark> some parts from wikisync could be used for that too
2007-05-16T23:12:52  <skipm> yes, i figured it would be adequate for the task and make such a standalone classifier language-neutral
2007-05-16T23:13:57  <dreimark> skipm: I do believe that is an important change for your project and if the interface is standardized its easier for us
2007-05-16T23:14:03  <dreimark> to use updates
2007-05-16T23:14:05  <dreimark> from sb
2007-05-16T23:14:57  <neagulm> skipm, dreimark i agree!
2007-05-16T23:15:08  <dreimark> sorry interface is not the right word
2007-05-16T23:15:11  <skipm> dreimark, neagulm: my motivation for trying this approach is that i ran into exactly the same problem when trying to integrate sb w/ roundup - i didn't know my ass from a hole in the ground when it came to the roundup code
2007-05-16T23:16:48  <dreimark> hehe
2007-05-16T23:18:33  <skipm> dreimark, neagulm: then there are about a bazillion other web sites and/or web apps which could use decent spam detection.  it's kind of tough to integrate with all of them.
2007-05-16T23:18:54  <dreimark> skipm: can you give an idea how long it will take ?
2007-05-16T23:19:31  <dreimark> skipm: yeah that why it is an imporatant wanted and necessary change
2007-05-16T23:20:30  <xorAxAx> i dont see how xml-rpc would be useful here in the first place :)
2007-05-16T23:20:30  <dreimark> I would prefer it available during soc
2007-05-16T23:20:42  <xorAxAx> because of data storage concerns
2007-05-16T23:20:46  <skipm> dreimark: good question.  there's a crunch to get this going for the new bugs.python.org (roundup tracker).  I'm working on it as I can.  At least for an hour or so on monday mornings at Tech Coffee (nerds hack open source and drink cooffee) but i'm also trying to squeeze in a few hours the rest of the week
2007-05-16T23:21:37  <skipm> dreimark: i would guess it will be a couple weeks before i have something i feel comfortable with.
2007-05-16T23:22:19  <dreimark> xorAxAx: any other ideas ?
2007-05-16T23:22:33  <xorAxAx> dreimark: how about a clean pythonic direct interface?
2007-05-16T23:22:34  <skipm> dreimark, neagulm: if you could provide some requirements for your needs, it would help direct my efforts. maybe we can carry on this discussion via email?  i kind of have to go catch my train
2007-05-16T23:22:42  <neagulm> xorAxAx, skipm, dreimark it is not required to store/send the actual data. hash functions can be used to transform the original message. Tokens are still tokens
2007-05-16T23:23:05  <xorAxAx> neagulm: can you explain the idea of having some remote interface in this context?
2007-05-16T23:23:25  <skipm> neagulm: hash functions?  you lost me.
2007-05-16T23:23:35  <dreimark> skipm, neagulm can you please create a page on MM about that idea too
2007-05-16T23:24:23  <skipm> dreimark, neagulm: is it okay to paste in bad ascii art here?
2007-05-16T23:24:49  <skipm> dreimark: sure.  subpage of SkipMontanaro okay?
2007-05-16T23:24:59  <dreimark> yep
2007-05-16T23:25:31  <dreimark> bad ascii art - lets see, currently no opinion
2007-05-16T23:25:43  <skipm> dreimark, neagulm: i really have to book out of here.  neagulm - send me (skip@pobox.com) an email so i have yours (bad ascii art can wait)...
2007-05-16T23:25:57  <neagulm> skipm, I was refering about xorAxAx concerns about data storage. The classifier should not be trained with the actual feature vector vect=[v1, v2, v3, ..., vn] but with [hsh(v) for v in vect] :)
2007-05-16T23:26:20  <xorAxAx> neagulm: i was rather thinking about use cases :)
2007-05-16T23:26:38  <xorAxAx> now add fuzzy hashes and you have written some backend library for services like razor
2007-05-16T23:27:53  * grzywacz is waiting for coffee to kick in before doing some creative stuff ;-S
2007-05-16T23:28:31  <xorAxAx> good evening my student
2007-05-16T23:28:39  <grzywacz> xorAxAx, did you happen to find anything essential missing from my proposal of xmlrpc calls?
2007-05-16T23:28:44  <grzywacz> xorAxAx, evening my hmre.
2007-05-16T23:28:55  <xorAxAx> let me reread your proposal
2007-05-16T23:29:02  <grzywacz> Ok.
2007-05-16T23:29:06  <grzywacz> ;-)
2007-05-16T23:29:35  <neagulm> xorAxAx, I think that we are "out of sync"...
2007-05-16T23:29:51  <neagulm> xorAxAx, I think that i worked to much today
2007-05-16T23:29:56  <xorAxAx> neagulm: well, explain to me which use cases there will be for the user :)
2007-05-16T23:30:17  <xorAxAx> i understood that you want to do remote classification by transmitting hashes
2007-05-16T23:30:33  <xorAxAx> grzywacz: did you consider the ideas we exchanged in the query?
2007-05-16T23:30:57  <grzywacz> xorAxAx, let me check the log
2007-05-16T23:31:16  <xorAxAx> grzywacz: anonymous authors have a "username" as well - their ip/hostname
2007-05-16T23:31:25  <grzywacz> Well, the opposite direction is obviously still missing.
2007-05-16T23:31:48  <grzywacz> xorAxAx, hm, good. These may be handy as well.
2007-05-16T23:32:26  <neagulm> xorAxAx, for the user nothing special, he will work normaly as with a local classifier
2007-05-16T23:32:36  <xorAxAx> yes, the other direction, grzywacz
2007-05-16T23:32:40  <grzywacz> The last time I launched eclipse to poke around the code to identify places for hooks my system has literally blown up because of OOM. ;-)
2007-05-16T23:32:54  <xorAxAx> grzywacz: see the storage soc2007 page for metadata you may want to transmit
2007-05-16T23:33:18  <grzywacz> Ok, checking.
2007-05-16T23:33:27  <xorAxAx> neagulm: well, i dont mean how he would use it, but why he would use it :)
2007-05-16T23:34:22  <ThomasWaldmann> moin
2007-05-16T23:34:27  <grzywacz> moin ThomasWaldmann
2007-05-16T23:35:03  <neagulm> xorAxAx, Eg. the classifier could be shared between more wikis
2007-05-16T23:35:08  <neagulm> moin ThomasWaldmann
2007-05-16T23:35:20  <xorAxAx> neagulm: well, you mean the actual corpii/states, right?
2007-05-16T23:35:30  <xorAxAx> the classifier itself doesnt need to be "shared" in the first place
2007-05-16T23:38:15  <neagulm> xorAxAx, yes. not shared as sharing his state but as all wiki's using the same instance of the classifier
2007-05-16T23:38:32  <neagulm> xorAxAx, dreimark, I think that I'm to tired
2007-05-16T23:38:41  <xorAxAx> neagulm: doesnt the latter imply the former?
2007-05-16T23:38:52  <xorAxAx> if it does not, i dont see the idea at all
2007-05-16T23:39:01  <xorAxAx> and want to read some wiki page about it
2007-05-16T23:39:39  <dreimark> neagulm: you have +1 to us
2007-05-16T23:40:26  <dreimark> and I am a bit tired too
2007-05-16T23:43:19  <neagulm> xorAxAx, this english language... What I want to say: A classifier is running on machine A. Wiki W1 is using XML-RPC (or anything else) to ask A about a page. Wiki W2 is using the same method to query A. No computation is done localy. The classification ocours on A.
2007-05-16T23:43:50  <xorAxAx> neagulm: why would it ask it about the page?
2007-05-16T23:44:17  <neagulm> xorAxAx, send it the page in a secure manner
2007-05-16T23:44:43  <xorAxAx> hmm?
2007-05-16T23:45:54  <dreimark> xorAxAx: currently we do something quite similiar with BC
2007-05-16T23:46:02  <xorAxAx> BC?
2007-05-16T23:46:08  <dreimark> Badcontent
2007-05-16T23:46:11  <dreimark> cC
2007-05-16T23:46:25  <xorAxAx> ugh
2007-05-16T23:46:43  <neagulm> xorAxAx, dreimark I'm switching computer again
2007-05-16T23:46:44  <neagulm> brb
2007-05-16T23:46:45  <grzywacz> ...
2007-05-16T23:46:45  <neagulm> :)
2007-05-16T23:46:52  <dreimark> that was fast
2007-05-16T23:46:56  <dreimark> :)
2007-05-16T23:47:04  <xorAxAx> well, the main point here is the idea of data secrecy
2007-05-16T23:47:25  <xorAxAx> i am not sure if i want to submit hashes of all my n-grams/words (128 bit per word?) to a remote wiki
2007-05-16T23:47:38  <grzywacz> I must buy more ram before coding starts, otherwise it's going to be a total disaster. -_-;
2007-05-16T23:47:52  <xorAxAx> and even then, use cases should be drafted first, on a wiki page
2007-05-16T23:47:54  <dreimark> grzywacz: how much do you have?
2007-05-16T23:48:00  <grzywacz> 512...
2007-05-16T23:48:10  <dreimark> I've 384 here
2007-05-16T23:48:18  <grzywacz> firefox+xchat+eclipse+psi+firefox = total death
2007-05-16T23:48:37  <grzywacz> Maybe there's a hardware/kernel as well, but it would be  swapping like crazy anyway.
2007-05-16T23:48:48  <grzywacz> *hardware/kernel problem
2007-05-16T23:49:02  <grzywacz> Oh, forgot to mention amarok and kde...
2007-05-16T23:49:50  <dreimark> currently, freeciv, konversation, konqueror(6), firefox, kde, eclipse
2007-05-16T23:50:30  <xorAxAx> 31316 alexande  18   0  333m  93m 3840 S 12.9 19.0  71:37.04 irssi clear/ reset
2007-05-16T23:50:34  <xorAxAx> won
2007-05-16T23:51:07  <grzywacz> wtf
2007-05-16T23:51:08  <grzywacz> ;]
2007-05-16T23:51:34  <grzywacz> dreimark, mind that I have a 64-bit system and in some cases it can almost double the mem usage...
2007-05-16T23:52:08  <grzywacz> Maybe I should switch back to my beloved windowmaker...
2007-05-16T23:53:39  <ThomasWaldmann> ram (esp ddr2) is dirt cheap currently
2007-05-16T23:54:33  <grzywacz> Unfortunately I have ddr 1 and a strange motherboard with single/double-sided memory issues. ;-)
2007-05-16T23:55:49  <dreimark> grzywacz: the office system is extremly fast against that here, but most of my code was written on a slower and less mem machine.