MoinMoin: MoinMoinChat/Logs/moin-dev/2007-08-28

2007-08-28T00:00:34  <dreimark> If its windows you need a python which runs from usb stick without installation
2007-08-28T00:00:41  <dreimark> xorAxAx: better?
2007-08-28T00:02:40  <xorAxAx> well
2007-08-28T00:02:51  <xorAxAx> i would use wikisync with the n770
2007-08-28T00:02:56  <xorAxAx> (i own one as well)
2007-08-28T00:05:06  <dreimark> xorAxAx: Did you have setup a wiki on it too?
2007-08-28T00:06:14  <dreimark> I have no productive 1.6 / 1.7 wiki later on I will use wikisync more often.
2007-08-28T00:09:28  <xorAxAx> dreimark: not yet, i just got it today :)
2007-08-28T00:10:09  <dreimark> did you got the n770 or the n800 ?
2007-08-28T00:12:19  <xorAxAx> n770
2007-08-28T00:14:18  <dreimark> I do like it very much, easy to carry and wifi works perfectly.
2007-08-28T00:16:00  <dreimark> xorAxAx: You should have a look at maemomapper.
2007-08-28T00:27:01  <xorAxAx> whats that?
2007-08-28T00:39:19  <xorAxAx> dreimark:
2007-08-28T00:42:53  <dreimark> its a geographical mapping software.
2007-08-28T00:45:15  <xorAxAx> ok
2007-08-28T00:47:05  <dreimark> it could use ge and ve maps and some other sat maps
2007-08-28T00:49:59  <dreimark> good night
2007-08-28T01:34:52  <CIA-13> moin: Thomas Waldmann <tw AT waldmann-edv DOT de> * 2777:8e87182648f4 1.7/MoinMoin/parser/text_moin_wiki.py: cleaned up wiki parser comments
2007-08-28T03:12:54  <CIA-13> moin: Thomas Waldmann <tw AT waldmann-edv DOT de> * 2778:c8dd346f146e 1.7/MoinMoin/parser/ (_tests/test_text_moin_wiki.py text_moin_wiki.py): parser: anchor, bang_meta, relative pagelink fixes, more tests
2007-08-28T08:33:50  <ThomasWaldmann> moin
2007-08-28T11:48:42  <ThomasWaldmann> xorAxAx: any opinions about dynamically trying to load macros?
2007-08-28T11:49:56  <xorAxAx> ThomasWaldmann: how do you want to cache them then?
2007-08-28T11:50:03  <ThomasWaldmann> (currently we determine valid macro names and put them into the parsing regex - but we could also just use \w+ for the regex)
2007-08-28T11:50:27  <xorAxAx> to support the old syntax?
2007-08-28T11:50:35  <xorAxAx> or what would be the reason?
2007-08-28T11:50:48  <ThomasWaldmann> no, to be able to compile the big regex just once on module load
2007-08-28T11:51:21  <ThomasWaldmann> and to be able to copy macros to the plugin dir without moin restart
2007-08-28T11:52:40  <xorAxAx> i dont understand the compilation issue
2007-08-28T11:52:44  <ThomasWaldmann> the only difference would be for invalid macro names: it would try to import them and the catch the import error and generate <<XXX: failed to load macro XXX>> as output
2007-08-28T11:52:55  <xorAxAx> well, i dont see how you would want to cache macros
2007-08-28T11:52:59  <johill> you really should do that anyhow
2007-08-28T11:53:01  <johill> because now
2007-08-28T11:53:06  <johill> if you have a cached html representation
2007-08-28T11:53:08  <johill> and delete the macro
2007-08-28T11:53:10  <ThomasWaldmann> currently we have to compile on parser init
2007-08-28T11:53:11  <johill> the whole thing crashes
2007-08-28T11:53:20  <xorAxAx> johill: thats a different issue, yes
2007-08-28T11:53:26  <johill> no, it's the same issue
2007-08-28T11:53:28  <xorAxAx> ThomasWaldmann: why is that related to that regex?
2007-08-28T11:53:33  <xorAxAx> johill: i mean, its not his use case
2007-08-28T11:53:34  <johill> because we try to catch invalid macros with the RE early
2007-08-28T11:53:50  <johill> instead of doing the right thing and catching them when invoked
2007-08-28T11:53:57  <xorAxAx> ThomasWaldmann: ah, ok
2007-08-28T11:54:03  <xorAxAx> ThomasWaldmann: so caching is unrelated?
2007-08-28T11:54:07  <ThomasWaldmann> because we can't complete the regex without the list of existent macros (for the old method)
2007-08-28T11:54:15  <xorAxAx> you would still need to delete the page cache for a new macro
2007-08-28T11:54:18  <xorAxAx> but i guess thats ok
2007-08-28T11:54:19  <johill> what old method?
2007-08-28T11:54:37  <xorAxAx> was it like that in 1.5 already as well?
2007-08-28T11:54:59  <ThomasWaldmann> old method uses <<(BR|WhatEver|....)....>> for parsing macros
2007-08-28T11:55:10  <ThomasWaldmann> it only matches valid stuff
2007-08-28T11:55:14  <xorAxAx> indeed
2007-08-28T11:55:18  <ThomasWaldmann> or what moin THINKS is valid
2007-08-28T11:55:21  <xorAxAx> well
2007-08-28T11:55:25  <johill> which yields exactly the problem I just noted
2007-08-28T11:55:37  <xorAxAx> the "old" method had an advantage
2007-08-28T11:55:48  <xorAxAx> you could write [[foo]] even if you didnt mean a macro
2007-08-28T11:55:55  <ThomasWaldmann> yes
2007-08-28T11:56:13  <johill> yeah, not a good idea
2007-08-28T11:56:16  <ThomasWaldmann> but if that is a wanted feature, if could just do that on ImportError
2007-08-28T11:56:22  <johill> the wiki admin may add a macro and then ...
2007-08-28T11:56:22  <xorAxAx> yeah
2007-08-28T11:56:30  <xorAxAx> ThomasWaldmann: yep
2007-08-28T11:56:35  <ThomasWaldmann> for <<foo>> then
2007-08-28T11:56:41  <johill> I think it's an unwanted feature ;)
2007-08-28T11:56:45  <xorAxAx> johill: i dont :)
2007-08-28T11:56:58  <xorAxAx> the new macro syntax is unwanted :-P
2007-08-28T11:57:03  <grzywacz> moin
2007-08-28T11:57:06  <johill> well
2007-08-28T11:57:24  <johill> xorAxAx: but if somebody had [[Verbatim]] in his wiki and we added the verbatim macro
2007-08-28T11:57:27  <johill> instant breakage
2007-08-28T11:57:44  <ThomasWaldmann> (for the new macro syntax, there is not much choice. so I took the "maybe standard way" of creole)
2007-08-28T11:57:48  <xorAxAx> johill: so? :)
2007-08-28T11:57:58  <xorAxAx> johill: if you change the syntax now, there will be breakage as well
2007-08-28T11:58:21  <johill> oh sure
2007-08-28T11:58:32  <johill> but if we break it once we might as well correct this misfeature while at it
2007-08-28T11:58:49  <xorAxAx> i think its a feature
2007-08-28T11:58:56  <xorAxAx> similar to the interwiki links
2007-08-28T11:59:16  <johill> well, you get to write the converter
2007-08-28T11:59:17  <xorAxAx> just because somebody has content with a lot of [[foo]] in it, you dont want him to escape it everywhere
2007-08-28T11:59:22  <xorAxAx> converter?
2007-08-28T11:59:23  <johill> every time we add macros
2007-08-28T11:59:44  <xorAxAx> well, i think collisions are rare enough to let people fix it manually :)
2007-08-28T11:59:56  <johill> sure, every time we add a macro foo we'll have to convert [[foo]] to [``[foo]] or something
2007-08-28T12:00:18  <johill> that from you? I'm surprised
2007-08-28T12:00:31  <xorAxAx> johill: no, i am just realistic
2007-08-28T12:00:49  <xorAxAx> this is about the no. of users that are being annoyed
2007-08-28T12:01:06  <xorAxAx> and such a thing wont annoy many/any
2007-08-28T12:01:12  <johill> well, using <<<...>>> kinda solves that
2007-08-28T12:01:20  <xorAxAx> hmm?
2007-08-28T12:01:28  <johill> nobody really uses <<< in normal text
2007-08-28T12:01:38  <ThomasWaldmann> the question is also whether it is better to suppress the error msg "Cant load macro XX" for the sake of just rendering <<foo>>
2007-08-28T12:01:59  <xorAxAx> johill: well, dont think about articles. think about e.g. a perl snippet
2007-08-28T12:01:59  <ThomasWaldmann> (and not <<foo: Cant load macro foo>>)
2007-08-28T12:02:14  <johill> I stand by my reasoning that it is not better because then added macros will yield unexpected results
2007-08-28T12:02:17  <xorAxAx> ThomasWaldmann: it could hide the error message in the title :)
2007-08-28T12:02:30  <xorAxAx> johill: why unexpected?
2007-08-28T12:02:37  <xorAxAx> the resulting behaviour is expected
2007-08-28T12:02:41  <ThomasWaldmann> xorAxAx: span title?
2007-08-28T12:02:43  <johill> because all the sudden the output will change for no reason other than the wiki engine upgrade?
2007-08-28T12:02:45  <xorAxAx> people will conclude that there is a macro
2007-08-28T12:02:47  <xorAxAx> ThomasWaldmann: yes
2007-08-28T12:02:50  <xorAxAx> or <a title
2007-08-28T12:03:14  <johill> xorAxAx: perl snippets are realistically written within a pre section so they aren't affected
2007-08-28T12:03:16  <ThomasWaldmann> <a>?
2007-08-28T12:03:43  <xorAxAx> ThomasWaldmann: oops, ok, span
2007-08-28T12:08:38  <ThomasWaldmann> http://test17.wikiwikiweb.de/MacroTest (use preview to see, cache needs fixing)
2007-08-28T12:12:51  <ThomasWaldmann> hmm, i need to move that to formatter. but the formatter doesn't know the original markup (yet).
2007-08-28T12:15:02  <xorAxAx> "(yet)" ugh
2007-08-28T12:15:23  <xorAxAx> well, you can simply add a kwarg that passes the markup through, yes :)
2007-08-28T12:27:57  <ThomasWaldmann> I added an optional argument, works now.
2007-08-28T12:28:57  <ThomasWaldmann> error msg is in the span title (of course you'll never see it without pointing mouse there)
2007-08-28T12:38:44  <ThomasWaldmann> ok, so if the macro is valid, there is no change
2007-08-28T12:39:39  <ThomasWaldmann> if the macro name is invalid (or the macro plugin was removed), it renders the markup as text (with err msg in span title)
2007-08-28T12:53:52  <ThomasWaldmann> uhoh
2007-08-28T13:04:15  * ThomasWaldmann found a XSS problem
2007-08-28T13:04:37  <grzywacz> uh
2007-08-28T13:46:48  <xorAxAx> johill: ttp://www.idcorner.org/?p=161
2007-08-28T13:46:50  <xorAxAx> +h
2007-08-28T13:47:25  <xorAxAx> all reasons why openid is bad :)
2007-08-28T13:49:59  <johill> you think I care?
2007-08-28T13:50:16  <xorAxAx> no, maybe you have some counter points :)
2007-08-28T13:50:21  <johill> they're not thinking it through actually
2007-08-28T13:50:45  <xorAxAx> well, XSS + evil redirection is an easy and effective attack
2007-08-28T13:51:14  <johill> it's also pretty easy to solve by requiring you to log in before using your ID
2007-08-28T13:51:25  <johill> which gets rid of all the phishing paragraph
2007-08-28T13:51:28  <johill> half of the article
2007-08-28T13:51:41  <xorAxAx> hmm, how would that work?
2007-08-28T13:51:50  <xorAxAx> that requirement
2007-08-28T13:52:03  <johill> like I do in moin now
2007-08-28T13:52:11  <johill> I show "please log in first" but without any links
2007-08-28T13:52:13  <johill> anyway
2007-08-28T13:52:17  <johill> I don't have time to discuss openid
2007-08-28T13:52:27  <johill> but this seems like a huge rehash of old things that have been debunked many times
2007-08-28T13:52:33  <xorAxAx> you mean that if you supply an URL to your moin provider site, it will give you an error message?
2007-08-28T13:52:40  <xorAxAx> that you are not logged in?
2007-08-28T13:52:41  <johill> and openid is *by design* not a trust system
2007-08-28T13:52:48  <johill> that's like gpg
2007-08-28T13:53:01  <johill> it's not a trust system per se, it only defines how to encrypt things
2007-08-28T13:53:11  <xorAxAx> ?
2007-08-28T13:53:19  <xorAxAx> openpgp defines trust metrics
2007-08-28T13:53:25  <xorAxAx> and gpg implements them
2007-08-28T13:53:39  <johill> sure
2007-08-28T13:53:49  <johill> but it doesn't tell you "the guy with gpg ID 0x234234 is Johannes"
2007-08-28T13:53:53  <johill> which is what he wants
2007-08-28T13:53:57  <johill> yet gpg still works
2007-08-28T13:53:59  <johill> oddly
2007-08-28T13:54:06  <xorAxAx> well, now back to my last question :)
2007-08-28T13:54:07  <johill> according to the argument in the article it shouldnt' be possible for it to work
2007-08-28T13:54:22  <johill> yeah it'll give an error that you're not logged in
2007-08-28T13:54:31  <johill> and then you use your browser bookmark to log in
2007-08-28T13:55:06  <xorAxAx> ok, so this can be defeated with users who do not expect this behaviour or sites that dont implement it :)
2007-08-28T13:55:33  <johill> well, yeah, but if the users are dumb enough then you can just talk them into giving you the password too
2007-08-28T13:55:36  <xorAxAx> esp. the former case is a legit issue i think ... depending on who your users are
2007-08-28T13:56:17  <xorAxAx> ah, the first privacy issue is a very strong one
2007-08-28T13:56:18  <johill> gotta run
2007-08-28T13:56:33  <johill> http://daveman692.livejournal.com/310578.html
2007-08-28T13:56:36  <xorAxAx> (recycling user ids - in moin it would be about users renaming themselves)
2007-08-28T13:56:43  <xorAxAx> c u johill
2007-08-28T14:11:54  <dreimark> moin
2007-08-28T14:39:21  <CIA-13> moin: Ville-Pekka Vainio <vpivaini AT cs DOT helsinki DOT fi> * 3022:5b857dff2673 1.7-maninfo-vpv/MoinMoin/parser/ (_tests/test_text_moin_wiki.py text_moin_wiki.py): merge from main
2007-08-28T14:39:22  <CIA-13> moin: Ville-Pekka Vainio <vpivaini AT cs DOT helsinki DOT fi> * 3023:52e2664a9b93 1.7-maninfo-vpv/MoinMoin/script/import/manimport.py: Better makeinfo options, also untar .txt files in info handling, those may be referenced.
2007-08-28T14:39:35  <vpv> argh, I should never have bought the cheapest chinese router available for my parents
2007-08-28T14:40:01  <vpv> it gives up when doing hg push or browsing wikipedia or something :D
2007-08-28T14:40:48  <ThomasWaldmann> hi dreimark
2007-08-28T14:40:49  <xorAxAx> maybe some bits in your changeset are revealing facts about china? :)
2007-08-28T14:41:07  <vpv> probably
2007-08-28T14:42:20  * ThomasWaldmann hates cheap routers. they create more damage than they are worth.
2007-08-28T14:43:59  <grzywacz> hehe
2007-08-28T14:44:04  * grzywacz is happy with his LG
2007-08-28T14:48:52  <CIA-13> moin: Thomas Waldmann <tw AT waldmann-edv DOT de> * 2779:c9dd12befda7 1.7/MoinMoin/ (6 files in 2 dirs):
2007-08-28T14:48:52  <CIA-13> moin: wiki parser: match everything looking like a macro and either execute it (macro
2007-08-28T14:48:52  <CIA-13> moin: imports ok) or render the macro markup as text (macro import fails, error msg is
2007-08-28T14:48:52  <CIA-13> moin: in title). This makes scan_rules independent of wiki, so we can move all
2007-08-28T14:48:52  <CIA-13> moin: re.compile time to Parser class (doing it only once on module import time).
2007-08-28T14:48:55  <CIA-13> moin: Thomas Waldmann <tw AT waldmann-edv DOT de> * 2780:28b851be0844 1.7/MoinMoin/formatter/text_gedit.py: fix gui editot formatter XSS issues
2007-08-28T14:48:58  <CIA-13> moin: Thomas Waldmann <tw AT waldmann-edv DOT de> * 2781:5507fdc7fe87 1.7/MoinMoin/formatter/text_gedit.py: gedit formatter: use new transclusion syntax for attachment_inline when feeding gui editor
2007-08-28T14:49:01  <CIA-13> moin: Thomas Waldmann <tw AT waldmann-edv DOT de> * 2782:4c7a5994fe34 1.7/MoinMoin/converter/text_html_text_moin_wiki.py: gui editor converter: convert <object>, needs more work
2007-08-28T15:25:50  <ThomasWaldmann> (1.5 also got a XSS fix, but CIA doesnt watch 1.5)
2007-08-28T15:25:58  <ThomasWaldmann> bbl
2007-08-28T15:26:38  <xorAxAx> ThomasWaldmann: why doesnt it
2007-08-28T15:26:39  <xorAxAx> ...?
2007-08-28T15:27:04  <ThomasWaldmann> because it isnt configured to do :)
2007-08-28T15:27:26  <xorAxAx> well, it might make sense to do so
2007-08-28T15:27:52  <ThomasWaldmann> i don't expect many more changesets there...
2007-08-28T15:28:34  <ThomasWaldmann> let's see, nobody expected the spanish inquisition either :D
2007-08-28T15:49:37  <CIA-13> moin: Ville-Pekka Vainio <vpivaini AT cs DOT helsinki DOT fi> * 3024:0d1b628379be 1.7-maninfo-vpv/MoinMoin/script/import/manimport.py: Add one FIXME item, Fedora source packages can apparently end with .src.tgz, add one logging item
2007-08-28T17:32:50  <CIA-13> moin: Ville-Pekka Vainio <vpivaini AT cs DOT helsinki DOT fi> * 3025:f94f8222a2ec 1.7-maninfo-vpv/MoinMoin/script/import/manimport.py: Don't download the same source rpm many times
2007-08-28T17:32:54  <CIA-13> moin: Ville-Pekka Vainio <vpivaini AT cs DOT helsinki DOT fi> * 3030:2b6f2f4ff0dd 1.7-maninfo-vpv/MoinMoin/ (7 files in 3 dirs): merge from main
2007-08-28T19:10:41  <dreimark> bbl
2007-08-28T21:08:04  <ThomasWaldmann> moin
2007-08-28T21:23:46  <dreimark> moin
2007-08-28T21:24:35  <ThomasWaldmann> hi dreimark
2007-08-28T21:26:31  <dreimark> currently I check how to control the mplayer plugin from EmbedObject
2007-08-28T21:33:59  <ThomasWaldmann> with object element?
2007-08-28T21:34:36  <ThomasWaldmann> dreimark: btw, we also need usable roundtripping for that stuff for gui editor
2007-08-28T21:35:51  <dreimark> with object element and param.
2007-08-28T21:36:07  <dreimark> I know its working with flash already
2007-08-28T21:36:37  <dreimark> But I have problems to find out whats are the param names of the mplayer-plugin
2007-08-28T21:39:00  <dreimark> Its not always wanted that a movie starts with loading the page
2007-08-28T21:40:54  <ThomasWaldmann> yeah, sure
2007-08-28T21:41:40  <ThomasWaldmann> and if we finally have the right <object> tag + inner stuff, we need to be able to transform it back to the macro or to {{...}} embedding syntax
2007-08-28T21:42:49  <dreimark> but then we should have arguments too. width, height are important
2007-08-28T21:44:43  <ThomasWaldmann> I am just waiting whether the creole guys can have a fast decision on that or not.
2007-08-28T21:46:31  <dreimark> after I have merged it to 1.6 I will change the name on 1.7 to macro_Object.
2007-08-28T21:47:19  <ThomasWaldmann> http://www.wikicreole.org/wiki/Talk.Images
2007-08-28T22:02:22  <dreimark> arrgh mplayer-plugin needs 0 or 1 and not false or true
2007-08-28T22:34:15  <dreimark> ThomasWaldmann: Objects could be not printable
2007-08-28T22:47:11  <neagulm> moin
2007-08-28T23:01:53  <ThomasWaldmann> ah, yeah. text/plain and text/html objects aren't nice anyway with those scrollbars.
2007-08-28T23:27:03  <neagulm> good night all
2007-08-28T23:33:43  <dreimark> gn