MoinMoin: MoinMoinChat/Logs/moin-dev/2007-10-27

2007-10-27T12:35:21  <dreimark> bbl
2007-10-27T15:40:14  <grzywacz> hello
2007-10-27T19:28:15  <ThomasWaldmann> moin
2007-10-27T19:28:33  <starshine> moin
2007-10-27T19:31:04  <ThomasWaldmann> starshine: hi. did you find anything strange in your 1.6 trial?
2007-10-27T19:37:54  <starshine> you mean in the grepping?
2007-10-27T19:38:16  <starshine> thought we already settled that ?
2007-10-27T19:38:47  <starshine> (as for usign it myself, I should never have said I had free time.  murphy heard me and gave me way too much paidwork to do :/ )
2007-10-27T19:41:48  <ThomasWaldmann> i dont mean anything special
2007-10-27T19:42:02  <starshine> well I do plan to work on things this weekend
2007-10-27T19:42:05  <ThomasWaldmann> hehe X)
2007-10-27T19:42:13  <starshine> just to doublecheck what you want of me for Modern
2007-10-27T19:43:05  <starshine> you want similar gloss as I did for Hypermodern?  but Modern's coloration?
2007-10-27T19:44:08  <ThomasWaldmann> do you have a url running hypermodern?
2007-10-27T19:44:43  <starshine> lemme doublecheck
2007-10-27T19:47:49  <starshine> grr, I seem to have broken one of my dev setups
2007-10-27T19:48:01  <starshine> I really shouldn't allow systems to upgrade ;P
2007-10-27T19:48:23  <starshine> anyways the theme from ThemeMarket
2007-10-27T19:49:02  <starshine> all hypermodern was really, is modern, plus background-art in a few places, while I was sweeping through trying to see which colours were the same color in Modern
2007-10-27T19:49:39  <starshine> if you diff hypermodern vs modern of the same moin vintage almost all the diffs are comments.
2007-10-27T19:51:37  * ThomasWaldmann has looked at it long ago, but I think I have to redo that to get a current impression
2007-10-27T19:52:25  <starshine> the extra art I used sandy tan color because I felt it kept a nice corporate impression
2007-10-27T19:53:11  <ThomasWaldmann> is tan that colour that aptana says is invalid? :)
2007-10-27T19:53:20  <starshine> hm?
2007-10-27T19:54:22  <ThomasWaldmann> (i loaded the rightsidebar css into eclipse/aptana and it said colour: tan is invalid, iirc)
2007-10-27T19:54:32  <starshine> ahh haha ok
2007-10-27T19:54:57  <starshine> I avoid 'named colors' - though they used to be good, there are too many browsers that don't agree on them.
2007-10-27T19:55:50  <starshine> usign the hex value that matches agreed-on colors is excellent, but depending on the names to be honored is not so great.
2007-10-27T19:57:22  <ThomasWaldmann> ok
2007-10-27T19:57:34  <ThomasWaldmann> btw, work on the modern theme should be done using hg
2007-10-27T19:58:04  <TheSheep> one of these days I will give a face lift to the classic theme
2007-10-27T19:58:22  <ThomasWaldmann> (or rather: work on any builtin theme :)
2007-10-27T19:58:54  <TheSheep> I wonder if it would be a good idea to listen to those accessibility people around and really put all navigation at the bottom and move it with css to the top
2007-10-27T19:58:56  <ThomasWaldmann> and I prefer several small, well commented changesets over few, bigger ones
2007-10-27T20:00:06  <ThomasWaldmann> TheSheep: the accessibility reasons are valid of course, so the only question remaining is whether it has also negative issues
2007-10-27T20:00:25  <TheSheep> ThomasWaldmann: it doesn't look good in lynx :)
2007-10-27T20:01:42  <xorAxAx> TheSheep: no, it looks better because you dont have the navibar clutter your page
2007-10-27T20:01:49  <ThomasWaldmann> does it look good in any textmode browser?
2007-10-27T20:02:00  <xorAxAx> in lynx its displayed as a ul, every item in a line
2007-10-27T20:02:13  <xorAxAx> that eats a lot of space for all the cruft before the page content
2007-10-27T20:02:24  <xorAxAx> (the same is done for the page title and other elements)
2007-10-27T20:02:34  <TheSheep> xorAxAx: you can display it as just <div> with <a>'s, no problem
2007-10-27T20:03:00  <TheSheep> and page title is just horrible
2007-10-27T20:03:18  <TheSheep> because, semantically, it's *not* a list
2007-10-27T20:03:29  <TheSheep> it shouldn't be a list
2007-10-27T20:03:44  <xorAxAx> yes
2007-10-27T20:04:04  <xorAxAx> TheSheep: you mean you want to display a div if its lynx and otherwise a navibar list?
2007-10-27T20:04:08  <xorAxAx> :)
2007-10-27T20:04:26  <TheSheep> xorAxAx: no, I want to display a div always, and make it look the same as it does now with css
2007-10-27T20:04:45  <TheSheep> xorAxAx: the idea is to make it usable both in lynx and in css-supporting browsers
2007-10-27T20:05:00  <starshine> ThomasWaldmann: yes definitely;  I got my hg set up nicely just for it.
2007-10-27T20:05:21  <starshine> yay TheSheep my lynx will love you :)
2007-10-27T20:05:45  <TheSheep> starshine: actually the oddmoose theme should already be pretty usable with lynx
2007-10-27T20:06:01  <starshine> however, I do NOT agree with that "all nav at the bottom" accessuibility attitude
2007-10-27T20:06:13  <ThomasWaldmann> starshine: ||<:> <<Icon(renamed)>> || marks page renames||
2007-10-27T20:06:24  <ThomasWaldmann> is it "renames" or "renamings"?
2007-10-27T20:06:32  <TheSheep> starshine: yes, there is some research showing that blind people actually expect the basic navigation at the top
2007-10-27T20:06:44  <TheSheep> starshine: just all the actions and cruft should go to the bottom
2007-10-27T20:06:46  <starshine> it has been my experience, among people who genuinely need to use lynx, that some basic nav at the very top, then the general page, then "sidebar fluff" can go at the very bottom
2007-10-27T20:06:47  <xorAxAx> starshine: have you ever used a screenreader with moin? :)
2007-10-27T20:07:02  <starshine> xorAxAx: one of my good friends is a blind sysadmin...
2007-10-27T20:07:24  <starshine> if you guys want me to have him take a look and express real opinions I'll drop him a line
2007-10-27T20:07:25  <TheSheep> starshine: exactly
2007-10-27T20:07:25  <xorAxAx> if so, did you manage to skip the stuff that you know already :)
2007-10-27T20:08:24  <starshine> I and a few other weird people I know just use lynx because we grow tired of ads and graphics everywhere :)
2007-10-27T20:08:56  <xorAxAx> hehe
2007-10-27T20:10:56  <ThomasWaldmann> starshine: adblock plus for firefox :)
2007-10-27T20:11:23  <ThomasWaldmann> (makes even heise newsticker readable)
2007-10-27T20:11:28  <starshine> yeah but in recent versions, firefox crashes a lot!
2007-10-27T20:11:47  <starshine> a friend of mine swears by privoxy :)
2007-10-27T20:11:57  <ThomasWaldmann> starshine: any opinion about correct wording?
2007-10-27T20:12:05  <starshine> wording of...?
2007-10-27T20:12:13  <ThomasWaldmann> starshine: ||<:> <<Icon(renamed)>> || marks page renames||
2007-10-27T20:12:16  <ThomasWaldmann> is it "renames" or "renamings"?
2007-10-27T20:12:41  <ThomasWaldmann> (it's the table under RecentChanges)
2007-10-27T20:13:01  <starshine> "marks renamed pages" or "marks page renames" but renamings would imply an event where people go to rename thigns
2007-10-27T20:13:26  <ThomasWaldmann> heh, ok
2007-10-27T20:13:44  <starshine> in my opinion, of course;  I think many people would be ok by 'marks page renamings' but the first form is unambiguous and matches the icon too.
2007-10-27T20:14:13  <TheSheep> 'tealls that page was renamed'
2007-10-27T20:14:16  <TheSheep> tells
2007-10-27T20:14:25  <TheSheep> :P
2007-10-27T20:14:37  * ThomasWaldmann changed MoinMaster:RecentChanges
2007-10-27T20:14:40  <starshine> 'tells' isn't how people say these things
2007-10-27T20:15:00  <starshine> 'indicates that' would work but is too long
2007-10-27T20:15:03  <TheSheep> shows
2007-10-27T20:15:04  <starshine> thanks TW :)
2007-10-27T20:16:31  <starshine> ThomasWaldmann: if you go to http://gemini.starshine.org/SVLUG/ and use that wiki, it is an older 1.5.x but has hypermodern among its list of themes
2007-10-27T20:16:50  <starshine> also it defaults to a theme look I've been putting together for a local LUG
2007-10-27T20:22:53  <starshine> page trails and breadcrumbs(parent pages path) can be a lot of clutter
2007-10-27T20:25:38  <ThomasWaldmann> starshine: the hypermodern there needs some updates. some stuff renders as standard list item because the css for it is missing.
2007-10-27T20:26:25  <starshine> that would be because it was first developed for 1.3.5 and only survived the transition to 1.5.x because of good subclassing.
2007-10-27T20:26:29  <starshine> it needs serious update
2007-10-27T20:27:20  <starshine> I was wondering if the kind of mild color adjustments I used for it were some of what you had in mind for me to do to Modern, or if you had some other thoughts I should apply
2007-10-27T20:28:00  <starshine> at this point Modern has changed so much that the only good way to redo hypermodern would be to start from a fresh clone of Modern, anyway.
2007-10-27T20:29:19  <starshine> (I think the moin you are looking at there is 1.5.2 or 1.5.3...)
2007-10-27T20:31:43  <ThomasWaldmann> i think i prefer the input fields with brighter background (more contrast)
2007-10-27T20:32:18  <ThomasWaldmann> what I am thinking of is some colour gradients maybe
2007-10-27T20:32:40  <starshine> it had been an experiment to see if assigned colors would stick.  I did hypermodern before I did dark_classic, where it would be important to make the picklists etc honor recoloration
2007-10-27T20:32:44  <starshine> ah
2007-10-27T20:33:05  <ThomasWaldmann> (and edit_bar should not have links underlined)
2007-10-27T20:33:12  <starshine> so do you want a shiny metal look (goes with the greys) or a parchment look (goes with the blues)
2007-10-27T20:33:18  <starshine> yeah I needed to fix that :)
2007-10-27T20:33:35  <starshine> too hyper, not modern enough ;P
2007-10-27T20:33:44  <ThomasWaldmann> maybe also some round edges (no idea if that makes problems)?
2007-10-27T20:33:59  <starshine> well switch to the NewSV theme on that one
2007-10-27T20:34:06  <starshine> I use round edges on its tabs
2007-10-27T20:34:21  <starshine> but I only tested it with three browsers
2007-10-27T20:34:40  <TheSheep> lynx, w3m and links
2007-10-27T20:34:50  <ThomasWaldmann> well, the tabs have no code in moin
2007-10-27T20:35:10  <starshine> ha. no.  three gui browsers.  konqueror, full mozilla, and whatever was lyign around on my mac at the time
2007-10-27T20:36:49  <starshine> in the newSV theme showing there, the 4 items that are shown in wikiconfig are actually shown below the local logo;  the visible 'tabs' are from a sidefile, in the same spirit as balanced theme, and have some slightly complex css supporting them.
2007-10-27T20:37:42  <starshine> it would be possible for me to apply the same kind of curved-edges logic to the normal tabs expected on Modern.
2007-10-27T20:39:44  <starshine> http://gemini.starshine.org/Trekkie/ shows hypermodern's bg art in the logo area to better advantage because the lgoo is taller
2007-10-27T20:45:48  <starshine> lemme see if I can find some css samples of rounded edges that don't involve as much bits of graphics.
2007-10-27T20:48:01  <ThomasWaldmann> starshine: i guess you want to kick ValentineSchurz from the Trekkie wiki and remove that spam
2007-10-27T20:49:47  <starshine> yeah, I should do that..
2007-10-27T20:50:01  <starshine> speaking of treekie, eek. I have a meeting to get to
2007-10-27T20:50:21  * ThomasWaldmann .oO("Scotty, beam me there.")
2007-10-27T20:51:24  <starshine> yeah that'd be nice, not payign for parking too!
2007-10-27T22:48:50  * ThomasWaldmann updates EXIF.py