MoinMoin: MoinMoinChat/Logs/moin-dev/2008-02-18

2008-02-18T11:14:59  <dreimark> moin
2008-02-18T11:31:07  <ThomasWaldmann> moin
2008-02-18T12:11:09  <johill> ThomasWaldmann: hm ok but that'll drop recentchanges too, no?
2008-02-18T12:12:52  <ThomasWaldmann> event-log is only statistics
2008-02-18T12:57:49  <dreimark> I do have a user on one of my wikis who has added urls to quicklinks.
2008-02-18T12:59:22  <johill> ThomasWaldmann: duh, yeah, I'm confused
2008-02-18T13:14:33  <johill> why do I even write event-log then?
2008-02-18T13:14:37  <johill> my web server logs too
2008-02-18T13:17:38  <johill> at least it compresses factor >10
2008-02-18T13:18:24  <dreimark> johill: ThomasWaldmann in 1.5.8 reading event-log was much faster
2008-02-18T13:18:34  <dreimark> it was not quite a problem to read 2GB
2008-02-18T13:19:40  <johill> dreimark: where is it even read at all?
2008-02-18T13:19:49  <johill> dreimark: I think I just don't need it
2008-02-18T13:19:57  <dreimark> I do use it for Hits
2008-02-18T13:20:12  <johill> I don't use hits, I use my webserver stats instead
2008-02-18T13:20:18  <johill> not quite as accurate with attachments, of course
2008-02-18T13:21:37  <dreimark> only admins do have access to server logs. while PageHists or Hits are for users
2008-02-18T13:21:49  <dreimark> readable
2008-02-18T13:22:16  <johill> yeah, but I don't want to expend gobs of disk space for them ;)
2008-02-18T13:22:36  <johill> plus I also generate webalizer stats
2008-02-18T13:24:42  <johill> imho ever-growing files are a scalability problem. all web servers come with default logrotate config etc
2008-02-18T13:26:23  <dreimark> yep and they can fast increase if you do use #REFRESH
2008-02-18T13:27:06  <dreimark> may be we can change the "loglevel"
2008-02-18T13:27:24  <dreimark> but if the file is used it whould be faster accessible as now
2008-02-18T13:42:39  <dreimark> s/whould/should/
2008-02-18T13:43:13  <johill> I think I'd rather have a config option to not write it in the first place
2008-02-18T13:43:21  <johill> that'd save IO and disk space
2008-02-18T15:40:55  <ThomasWaldmann> johill: feel free to event, implement and document a switch for that
2008-02-18T15:41:48  <ThomasWaldmann> it would be nice if the stats stuff then displays "event logging switched off, not displaying stats" or similar.
2008-02-18T15:57:58  <dreimark> ThomasWaldmann: do we want all this changesets as forward ports for text_moin_wiki
2008-02-18T15:58:18  <dreimark> there were lots of changesets done and reverted
2008-02-18T15:58:33  <dreimark> or do we like to copy the 1.6 parser to 1.7 ?
2008-02-18T16:01:50  <dreimark> bbl
2008-02-18T16:28:41  <dreimark> re
2008-02-18T17:51:09  <ThomasWaldmann> dreimark: i will do the parser stuff (likely by copying+fixing), but I appreciate some help with the other changesets
2008-02-18T17:52:45  <TheSheep> ThomasWaldmann: say, shouldn't the anchor-computing function from the ToC macro be available somewhere centralised? I mean, right now it's just copy-pasted to all the parsers
2008-02-18T17:54:24  <ThomasWaldmann> TheSheep: iirc 1.7 has some changes for anchor stuff.
2008-02-18T17:55:00  <ThomasWaldmann> and the general answer for changes is "after the forward ports", you can help to make it happen faster :)
2008-02-18T17:55:52  <TheSheep> I guess it's a good way to familiarize myself with some more obscure parts of the source tree
2008-02-18T17:55:56  <ThomasWaldmann> see also the 1.7 plan
2008-02-18T17:56:38  <ThomasWaldmann> very big changes, like rewriting the parser/formatter shall not happen in 1.7 or we won't have something stable for SOC
2008-02-18T17:57:23  <TheSheep> sure
2008-02-18T18:06:51  * ThomasWaldmann is currently working on a AttachFile refactoring
2008-02-18T18:07:08  <ThomasWaldmann> the old code is very crappy...
2008-02-18T18:14:29  <ThomasWaldmann> shit, we have a finnish interwiki link confusion problem (again)
2008-02-18T18:16:33  <TheSheep> ThomasWaldmann: they use : inside words?
2008-02-18T18:17:45  <xorAxAx> : is used in swedish as well :)
2008-02-18T18:24:53  <TheSheep> well, there is no choice, we need to encode all interwiki abbreviations in Morse
2008-02-18T18:26:42  <TheSheep> daw_daw__daw_daw_daw__dit_dit__daw_dit__daw_daw__daw_daw_daw__dit_dit__daw_dit:HelpOnInterwiki
2008-02-18T18:36:36  <ThomasWaldmann> [[Self:strange:finnish:stuff]] could work.
2008-02-18T18:43:26  <ninnnu> Finnish doesn't have : inside words... And I don't remember seeing :'s inside article-names anywhere.
2008-02-18T18:44:16  <ThomasWaldmann> ninnnu: there is a mail from a finnish guy on our mailinglist
2008-02-18T18:44:38  <ThomasWaldmann> [[VNTHY:n_DNS-nimipalvelu]]
2008-02-18T18:45:00  <ThomasWaldmann> [[SMTP-reititys_VNTHY:n_verkossa]]
2008-02-18T18:45:27  <ThomasWaldmann> no idea what that means, but the first one fails badly (he did not want interwiki)
2008-02-18T18:45:27  <ninnnu> VNTHY is abbrevitation... And apparently quite long so "exploding" it wouldn't be an option :/
2008-02-18T18:45:58  <ninnnu> "VNTHY's DNS-nameservice" and "SMTP-routing in VNTHY's networks"
2008-02-18T18:46:04  <ninnnu> </useless info>
2008-02-18T18:46:09  <ThomasWaldmann> ah :)
2008-02-18T18:47:38  <xorAxAx> and quoting it doesnt work?
2008-02-18T18:48:31  <ThomasWaldmann> there is no quoting. but Self: does work.
2008-02-18T18:49:19  <xorAxAx> hmm, you introduced quoting at some places for the spaces right? attachment: and similar stuff?
2008-02-18T18:49:52  <ThomasWaldmann> and it could be made working even without self by handling pagename and interwiki by the same regex and checking if the interwiki name is present in the interwiki map
2008-02-18T18:50:03  <ThomasWaldmann> the code for free interwiki links does it like this
2008-02-18T18:50:38  <ThomasWaldmann> xorAxAx: that was in some early 1.6 parser and was replaced by the [[]] stuff
2008-02-18T18:51:00  <xorAxAx> ok
2008-02-18T18:51:11  <ThomasWaldmann> because the double brackets delimit the strings, no need for "quoting spaces"
2008-02-18T18:52:00  <ThomasWaldmann> so that problem is fixable
2008-02-18T18:52:30  <ThomasWaldmann> but we have a problem with links without protocol
2008-02-18T18:53:04  <xorAxAx> well, quoting would allow you to unambigously delimit interwikiname and pagename
2008-02-18T18:53:51  <ThomasWaldmann> e.g. if someone wants to create a link with href="/some/path/stuff.txt"
2008-02-18T18:58:45  <ThomasWaldmann> xorAxAx: like [[SomeWiki:"some page"]]?
2008-02-18T18:59:14  <xorAxAx> yes, but if you restrict the iwname not to contain a colon, it should be unambigous as well
2008-02-18T18:59:23  <ThomasWaldmann> xorAxAx: and [["some:page"]]?
2008-02-18T18:59:26  <xorAxAx> yes
2008-02-18T18:59:43  <xorAxAx> (and you would need the check for iw-existence
2008-02-18T18:59:58  <xorAxAx> but i guess adding quoting just for colons is a bit overkill
2008-02-18T19:00:36  <starshine> but there are book names that sometimes contain colon
2008-02-18T19:00:51  <dreimark> bbl
2008-02-18T19:01:10  <starshine> and tv shows
2008-02-18T19:01:42  <ThomasWaldmann> there is also ambiguity for anchors
2008-02-18T19:01:43  <xorAxAx> starshine: yes, colons in pagenames sound important
2008-02-18T19:02:01  <ThomasWaldmann> (is stuff after # an anchor name or just a part of the page name?)
2008-02-18T19:02:34  <ThomasWaldmann> TheSheep: btw, that stuff from 18:54, is it solved for creole?
2008-02-18T19:03:24  <starshine> I think # would be much more rare
2008-02-18T19:04:16  <starshine> and an ability to honor anchors or create anchors easily by using it would be far more intuitive (its a web thing right, oh yeah anchors) than the fairly rare need to quote it
2008-02-18T19:04:22  <ThomasWaldmann> starshine: who's your #1? :)
2008-02-18T19:04:38  <starshine> :) but I dont make pages named that
2008-02-18T19:05:00  <starshine> (apostrophe would be a character to look out for defending though)
2008-02-18T19:05:08  <ThomasWaldmann> GWB #1 idiot :)
2008-02-18T19:05:13  <starshine> Foo's Theorem
2008-02-18T19:05:18  <starshine> Murphy's Law
2008-02-18T19:05:27  <TheSheep> ThomasWaldmann: from 18:45?
2008-02-18T19:05:37  <ThomasWaldmann> (18:54) < ThomasWal> e.g. if someone wants to create a link with href="/some/path/stuff.txt"
2008-02-18T19:05:39  <starshine> GWB is our current implementation of Murphy's Law, but we digress.
2008-02-18T19:05:45  <ThomasWaldmann> ehrm, :54
2008-02-18T19:06:45  <ThomasWaldmann> TheSheep: making an "external" link to same server, using same proto
2008-02-18T19:06:57  <TheSheep> ThomasWaldmann: well, external links need to have a protocol
2008-02-18T19:07:16  <TheSheep> ThomasWaldmann: and once you have the protocol, you need the server name
2008-02-18T19:07:19  <ThomasWaldmann> that's a problem if your server has http: and also https:
2008-02-18T19:07:56  <starshine> [[::images/corplogo.png]]
2008-02-18T19:07:59  <starshine> maybe?
2008-02-18T19:08:30  * ThomasWaldmann now knows why mw has different external link syntax. maybe.
2008-02-18T19:08:40  <starshine> it would visibly resemble shortcut for Self:
2008-02-18T19:08:46  <TheSheep> ThomasWaldmann: Oddmuse uses Self: interwiki for that
2008-02-18T19:08:53  <starshine> (mw Self: shortcut is one colon in front)
2008-02-18T19:09:09  <starshine> but um, Self is inside the wiki which might not be all of the host.
2008-02-18T19:09:23  <starshine> so one more colon ahead
2008-02-18T19:09:29  <TheSheep> starshine: why magic characters?
2008-02-18T19:09:39  <starshine> TheSheep: saves typing
2008-02-18T19:09:43  <TheSheep> then Root: maybe :)
2008-02-18T19:10:00  <TheSheep> starshine: not really, you can type a 5-letter word faster than an obscure symbol
2008-02-18T19:10:41  <starshine> do you really want to type [[http://moin.wikiwikiweb.de/images/corplogo.png]] if [[::images/corplogo.png]] would go there?
2008-02-18T19:10:53  <ThomasWaldmann> ninnnu: it is not possible to begin some word with a colon, right?
2008-02-18T19:10:55  <starshine> the poitn of wiki being to do less typing for more obvious markup
2008-02-18T19:11:07  <TheSheep> starshine: I'd type [[Images:corplogo.jpg]]
2008-02-18T19:11:23  <TheSheep> starshine: and define apropriate interwiki
2008-02-18T19:11:29  <starshine> TheSheep: but imagine that corp bosses don't *want* corplogo inside the wiki space
2008-02-18T19:11:31  <ninnnu> ThomasWaldmann: AFAIK no
2008-02-18T19:11:52  <starshine> they want it in one simple static place so their whole pile of web apps can use exactly one of it
2008-02-18T19:12:00  <TheSheep> starshine: well, we can imagine arbitrary restrictions that justify anything
2008-02-18T19:12:17  <ThomasWaldmann> ok, so [[:wikipagename]] would make sense. empty interwiki == Self.
2008-02-18T19:12:20  <TheSheep> starshine: then you define Images: as a link to there
2008-02-18T19:12:21  <starshine> there are lots of places that intermix a wiki with other stuff on an intranet or a people-facing external net
2008-02-18T19:12:33  <starshine> ThomasWaldmann: yes.
2008-02-18T19:12:43  <ninnnu> Yep, no. Colon is usually used when appending stuff to abbrevitations (like in this case) and numbers, and before listing (like in English)
2008-02-18T19:13:22  <starshine> I think having basically a two character macro (double empty) as shortcut for hostname base would be accepted by users easily.
2008-02-18T19:13:32  * ThomasWaldmann looks into code because of pagelinks cache and backlinks functionality of Self:xxx stuff
2008-02-18T19:13:45  <ninnnu> I don't think that any language starts words with colon...
2008-02-18T19:14:10  <starshine> we could sweep through our current i18n files for a hint to see if they did in those...
2008-02-18T19:14:27  <starshine> not exactly definitive but an ok statistical sample.
2008-02-18T19:14:40  <TheSheep> bbl
2008-02-18T19:17:06  <starshine> I suppose it would be nice to know if any languages start any words with various punctuation
2008-02-18T19:17:23  <starshine> we're in trouble if any start words with brackets ;p
2008-02-18T19:17:28  <ninnnu> "grep \": *" in i18n/ didn't return any msgstr that begins with colon... Well, that's a month old i18n, but I don't think that anything has changed that much
2008-02-18T19:19:15  <ninnnu> "grep msgstr\ \": *" returned nothing...
2008-02-18T19:20:23  <ThomasWaldmann> if we allow empty string to replace Self, there is the question whether it should be allowed for free interwiki links also
2008-02-18T19:20:40  <ThomasWaldmann> (sounds like a potential troublemaker)
2008-02-18T19:22:08  <ThomasWaldmann> bla Self:pagename bla could be written as bla :pagename bla
2008-02-18T19:22:51  <starshine> would this satisfy people who want to turn camelcase off but still feel like they get easy links without lots of typing?
2008-02-18T19:23:08  <starshine> and would it try to make pages named )
2008-02-18T19:23:14  <starshine> on the basis of :)
2008-02-18T19:23:27  <ThomasWaldmann> hmm, that would solve the finnish problem (and the workaround for it by looking into intermap) in a different way, but require changing of content
2008-02-18T19:24:36  <ThomasWaldmann> starshine: people disliking CamelCase usually want blanks in their pagenames and this doesnt work for pagenames with blanks
2008-02-18T19:25:29  <starshine> well the usual dislike I hear for camelcase is they're yakking about partnerships or whatever and lots of product and company names these days are genuine camelcase or lowHigh
2008-02-18T19:26:01  <starshine> so they get tired of sayign enough-already or only get the first one, they want camelcasing *off*
2008-02-18T19:26:35  <starshine> but it being really easy to mark which one *should* be a hotlink might be taken happily.
2008-02-18T19:26:41  <ThomasWaldmann> maybe in moin 2.0, when all our help pages are refactored to not depend on camelcase :)
2008-02-18T19:27:22  <starshine> hehe ok
2008-02-18T19:27:41  <ThomasWaldmann> we should remember that for next GHOP :D
2008-02-18T19:28:05  <starshine> we got lots of good stuff to merge from that :)
2008-02-18T19:28:47  <ThomasWaldmann> i guess :something is too dangerous.
2008-02-18T19:29:40  <starshine> if some :something out there only gave a link if the page exists and did not show deadlink if it does not that would be perfect
2008-02-18T19:30:08  <starshine> to get a deadlink even if it doesn't exist, use [[something]] like normal people.
2008-02-18T19:30:47  <ThomasWaldmann> so it looks like the regexes for free and bracketed interwiki links will be different again
2008-02-18T19:31:18  <ThomasWaldmann> starshine: i dont think i like such magic
2008-02-18T19:31:50  <starshine> ok then no :something in open text
2008-02-18T19:32:06  <starshine> nobody else does it that way, so nobody expects it, no harm to skip doing it.
2008-02-18T19:32:50  <ThomasWaldmann> (that could be a solution for CamelCase, but otoh it would spoil the whole point of CamelCase for not-yet existing pages)
2008-02-18T19:37:12  <starshine> honsetly I think if there was a fastway to make links but wouldn't make deadlink cruft all over a page it would take the fire out of people who normally pull the camelcase thing out against wikis in general.
2008-02-18T19:39:53  <starshine> or maybe that would only show deadlinks if you were authorized to write on this page.
2008-02-18T19:40:04  <kikka> Huhu.
2008-02-18T19:40:14  <starshine> then people could treat moin a little more like a CMS
2008-02-18T19:42:16  <starshine> unfrotunately checking auth status for all links is probably much slower.
2008-02-18T19:46:35  <ThomasWaldmann> hi kikka
2008-02-18T19:47:44  <ThomasWaldmann> starshine: auth status?
2008-02-18T19:49:56  <ThomasWaldmann> ah, ok
2008-02-18T19:50:15  <kikka> Hi ThomasWaldmann
2008-02-18T19:50:20  <ThomasWaldmann> but write acl on current page doesn't tell about write acl on target page
2008-02-18T19:50:50  <starshine> correct it does not
2008-02-18T19:50:52  <ThomasWaldmann> removing non-existing page linking would spoil it for camelcase lovers
2008-02-18T19:51:05  <starshine> however if it's a deadlink there is no target page anyway
2008-02-18T19:52:05  <ThomasWaldmann> right. it would've to check the default acl lists.
2008-02-18T19:52:19  <starshine> if people can't write, then not worrying their pretty heads about thes otherwise ugly dead links..
2008-02-18T19:52:28  <starshine> would be ... elegant.
2008-02-18T19:52:50  <starshine> however like most things that can be called elegant it'd be slow.
2008-02-18T21:14:54  * ThomasWaldmann fixes the interwiki stuff
2008-02-18T21:49:10  <grzywacz> moin
2008-02-18T21:51:08  <ThomasWaldmann> moin grzywacz
2008-02-18T21:55:22  <ThomasWaldmann> ok, the finnish problem is fixed
2008-02-18T21:55:53  <ThomasWaldmann> i removed the interwiki rule for parsing the doublebracket link target
2008-02-18T21:56:23  <ThomasWaldmann> thus, x:y will get matched by the pagename target rule
2008-02-18T21:57:09  <ThomasWaldmann> if there is a : in the pagename, it splits and looks up the left part in the interwiki map
2008-02-18T21:57:23  <ThomasWaldmann> if it is found, it gets rendered as interwiki link
2008-02-18T21:57:41  <ThomasWaldmann> if not (or no :) it renders a normal link
2008-02-18T21:58:35  <ThomasWaldmann> that also solves the complaint about the behaviour change from 1.5 to 1.6 interwiki bracket linking
2008-02-18T21:59:08  <ThomasWaldmann> 1.6.1 required uppercase interwiki wiki names, 1.6.2 won't care and accept everything in the map
2008-02-18T21:59:49  <ThomasWaldmann> to avoid strange effects, it will still require uppercase for free interwiki links (as 1.5 did, too)
2008-02-18T22:01:43  <ThomasWaldmann> and after thinking about abbreviating Self:xxx to :xxx, i think the main goal to achieve is not having to use interwiki for local links at all. If that goal is reached, we also do not need to abbreviate Self: because we don't usually need it.
2008-02-18T22:01:55  <xorAxAx> yep
2008-02-18T22:02:19  * grzywacz weaves to xorAxAx
2008-02-18T22:02:36  <ThomasWaldmann> -e :)
2008-02-18T22:04:20  <grzywacz> yeah...
2008-02-18T22:04:23  * grzywacz collapses
2008-02-18T22:04:29  * xorAxAx weaves grzywacz into a web of primes
2008-02-18T22:05:02  <grzywacz> xorAxAx, studying maths atm? :)
2008-02-18T22:05:41  <xorAxAx> yep
2008-02-18T22:06:07  <xorAxAx> miller rabin test, index calculus for discrete logarithms or factoring
2008-02-18T22:06:41  <kikka> heya xorAxAx
2008-02-18T22:06:42  <xorAxAx> oral exam tomorrow
2008-02-18T22:06:45  <xorAxAx> kikka: hi
2008-02-18T22:07:31  <grzywacz> xorAxAx, well, good luck, then.
2008-02-18T22:08:48  <xorAxAx> thanks
2008-02-18T22:09:36  <grzywacz> Any idea why my gentoo might be thinking that it's 21 here? When it's 22? :(
2008-02-18T22:10:03  <TheSheep> grzywacz: 21 green bottles of beer?
2008-02-18T22:10:18  <grzywacz> TheSheep, more like hours.
2008-02-18T22:10:20  <xorAxAx> maybe the compile time savings option is enabled to make you think that it compiles one hour faster than it really does? :)
2008-02-18T22:10:32  <TheSheep> lol
2008-02-18T22:10:32  <grzywacz> xorAxAx, yeah, that could be it...
2008-02-18T22:10:49  <grzywacz> Too bad I haven't compiled anything in a while. ;)
2008-02-18T22:11:05  <TheSheep> grzywacz: do you have a windows on that box?
2008-02-18T22:11:22  <grzywacz> TheSheep, nope, this is the only OS.
2008-02-18T22:11:43  <grzywacz> TheSheep, clock config set to local time, timezone to Warsaw, rdate keeps setting time 1 hour behind the clock...
2008-02-18T22:11:45  <TheSheep> grzywacz: then either the timezone or daylight savings...
2008-02-18T22:12:11  <grzywacz> TheSheep, well, it got broken recently ;)
2008-02-18T22:13:34  <TheSheep> grzywacz: get the source code for rdate, add a ++ somewhere, compile and you're set :)
2008-02-18T22:13:48  <grzywacz> :P
2008-02-18T22:17:06  <ThomasWaldmann> grzywacz: if gentoo is the only OS on that box, your hw clock should have UTC.
2008-02-18T22:25:57  <xorAxAx> use ddate
2008-02-18T22:28:47  <CIA-26> Thomas Waldmann <tw AT waldmann-edv DOT de> default * 2558:3e3a549b49f0 1.6/ (3 files in 3 dirs): Wiki parser: fix interwiki linking (see CHANGES)
2008-02-18T23:33:49  <dreimark> moin
2008-02-18T23:48:12  <ThomasWaldmann> wb dreimark
2008-02-18T23:50:31  <dreimark> /MoinMoinBugs/TwistedRequestNotFoundIn161 looks like mixed up 1.5 with 1.6
2008-02-18T23:53:31  <ThomasWaldmann> yeah
2008-02-18T23:59:12  <dreimark> I will all patches which do belong to parser changes and do check if I can port the left over ones
2008-02-18T23:59:29  <dreimark> s/will/will check/