MoinMoin: MoinMoinChat/Logs/moin-dev/2008-05-25

2008-05-25T00:22:25  <dreimark> re
2008-05-25T00:48:41  <CIA-49> Reimar Bauer <rb.proj AT googlemail DOT com> default * 3641:00af8e564f96 1.7/MoinMoin/parser/text_csv.py: parser.text_csv: removes empty lines in front of the csv table
2008-05-25T00:50:51  <dreimark> ThomasWaldmann: _tests/test_events.py:64 (test_user_created_event) fails for me
2008-05-25T00:53:24  * ThomasWaldmann runs tests
2008-05-25T01:01:12  <ThomasWaldmann> test does not match the current code
2008-05-25T01:19:10  <dreimark> good night
2008-05-25T06:40:53  <ThomasWaldmann> moin
2008-05-25T09:59:35  <johill> dennda: xorAxAx and I discussed a while ago that it would be best if revision metadata was immutable as well, and hence user storage used item metadata internally and no revisions rather than (as it is now) revision metadata of a single revision; item metadata needs to be mutable anyway (though isn't used for anything with pages except for edit locking right now); changing that might be something trivial to do initially too
2008-05-25T10:12:18  <ThomasWaldmann> re
2008-05-25T10:39:39  <johill> ThomasWaldmann: when I spoke with dennda we realised that we should run some things by more people
2008-05-25T10:40:45  <johill> ThomasWaldmann: especially, when attachments are going to be items on their own, where do they live? Are they supposed to be sub-pages to a give item (in the namespace)? Are they supposed to have their own namespace completely? Regardless of how the URL will look like...
2008-05-25T10:43:46  <xorAxAx> johill: yeah, i have the impression that the naively hashed out choices in that context should be reconsidered again
2008-05-25T10:46:02  <johill> yeah, you may actually want attachment storage to be elsewhere
2008-05-25T10:46:25  <johill> I checked quickly, mediawiki seems to use filesystem too (and NFS for multiple servers)
2008-05-25T10:49:37  <TheSheep> some mediawikis even use completely separate app for uploading the files
2008-05-25T10:49:57  <TheSheep> and separate server for serving them
2008-05-25T10:53:34  <xorAxAx> johill: i think thats orthogonal
2008-05-25T10:53:46  <johill> not exactly
2008-05-25T10:54:04  <johill> if they live in the same backend you cannot store them elsewhere easily
2008-05-25T10:54:05  <xorAxAx> you could always have a backend that delegates based on e.g. itemsize
2008-05-25T10:54:30  <johill> yeah but that's crappy to configure, and the item size may not even be known up front when you create an item
2008-05-25T10:55:08  <johill> so you'd probably end up doing it either on mimetype or (yuck) introducing some 'use attachment storage' flag if you go that way
2008-05-25T10:55:16  <johill> then you might as well configure a separate attachment backend
2008-05-25T10:55:33  <johill> and allow using the same one by making the names not able to clash
2008-05-25T10:56:16  <xorAxAx> thats a user visible solution to an administrative/internal problem
2008-05-25T10:56:23  <xorAxAx> which is pretty bad :)
2008-05-25T10:56:40  <johill> why do you think that is user visible?
2008-05-25T11:04:05  <xorAxAx> because the names do not clash :)
2008-05-25T11:04:25  <xorAxAx> i mean, non-clashing names might make sense, but IMHO primarily for UI reasons
2008-05-25T11:04:34  <xorAxAx> or usage reasons, that is
2008-05-25T11:05:21  <xorAxAx> like in mediawiki where you can probably store files in every namespace as well but by default they go into their own
2008-05-25T11:40:43  <ThomasWaldmann> johill: it's all items, no attachments any more
2008-05-25T11:41:05  <ThomasWaldmann> and the converter will create subitems from attachments of course
2008-05-25T12:07:44  <johill> ThomasWaldmann: yeah but should they live as page/subitem.png?
2008-05-25T12:08:24  <johill> that was my first thought too, but it seems that then the notion of attachments is pretty thin
2008-05-25T12:08:37  <johill> which we may want, in fact
2008-05-25T12:08:40  <johill> anyway, lunch
2008-05-25T12:08:53  <ThomasWaldmann> a page is a item with text/x-moin-wiki mimetype
2008-05-25T12:09:13  <ThomasWaldmann> a file is a item with e.g. application/pdf mimetype
2008-05-25T12:09:14  <johill> what I mean is
2008-05-25T12:09:29  <ThomasWaldmann> everything else is the same
2008-05-25T12:09:30  <johill> after that, an 'attachment' no longer /belongs/ to a page
2008-05-25T12:09:38  <ThomasWaldmann> it is a subitem
2008-05-25T12:09:50  <ThomasWaldmann> (could be also a toplevel item, if wanted)
2008-05-25T12:09:56  <johill> but unlike filesystem folders, subitems can exist w/o their parent
2008-05-25T12:10:21  <ThomasWaldmann> yes
2008-05-25T12:10:43  <johill> hence, the notion of 'this is an attachment to a page X' no longer makes sense
2008-05-25T12:11:16  <ThomasWaldmann> yeah, it's all items :P
2008-05-25T12:11:50  <ThomasWaldmann> and it won't be [[attachment:foo.txt]] - the converter will make [[/foo.txt]] from that
2008-05-25T12:12:41  <johill> yeah that probably makes sense
2008-05-25T12:12:51  <johill> well, I really have to go to lunch now :)
2008-05-25T12:12:57  <ThomasWaldmann> or {{/foo.png}}
2008-05-25T12:41:54  * dennda yawns
2008-05-25T13:09:46  <dennda> johill: I still have issues with the term "metadata" what is that *supposed* to be? (That is, what info)
2008-05-25T13:11:10  <dennda> On the Item (Attachment) side of things: We don't want such Items to exist without any page refering to it, do we? (They may get lost or forgotten and pollute disk space)
2008-05-25T13:19:34  <johill> dennda: metadata is, for example, the user-id of the user who created an attachment, in some property
2008-05-25T13:19:42  <johill> dennda: basically, anything that isn't data
2008-05-25T13:19:51  <johill> dennda: even the ACL is metadata, though currently it is embedded in the file
2008-05-25T13:20:59  <johill> dennda: as for attachments and not allowing them to exist w/o a page referring to them: I think that they'll just show up in OrphanedPages then
2008-05-25T13:21:13  <johill> so we just treat them as pages in their own right
2008-05-25T13:21:33  <johill> just for conversion and some legacy/compat code we treat attachments to a page as sub-items to it
2008-05-25T13:24:01  <dennda> I see the items thing a bit like a GC. As soon as the last reference to an item is gone it should show up on that OrphanedPages thing (of which I didn't know it existed), imho
2008-05-25T13:24:31  <johill> yeah that's how it works pretty much
2008-05-25T13:24:39  <johill> except attachments aren't really items now
2008-05-25T13:25:05  <zenhase> moin
2008-05-25T13:25:19  <johill> hey zenhase
2008-05-25T13:25:30  * zenhase waves in excitement
2008-05-25T13:26:06  <zenhase> last day before coding start and still a lot to do \o/
2008-05-25T13:26:32  <johill> :)
2008-05-25T13:26:39  <zenhase> tonight i will dump the carefully prepared server-image unto my dedicated server
2008-05-25T13:27:26  <dennda> johill: I am trying to understand what you wrote above. I would intuitively assume that revision metadata was immutable. Why would you need to alter it?
2008-05-25T13:27:29  <zenhase> finally an organized and carefully configured server
2008-05-25T13:27:36  <johill> dennda: you don't
2008-05-25T13:27:48  <johill> dennda: but lanius was confused and made users revisions, not items
2008-05-25T13:28:01  <dennda> That's a bit immoral
2008-05-25T13:28:11  <johill> so for each user, he has
2008-05-25T13:28:17  <zenhase> making people revisions is immoral?
2008-05-25T13:28:25  <zenhase> as opposed to making them items? ;)
2008-05-25T13:28:28  <johill> an Item, with a single revision ('1'), and the user data is stored in the metadata of that revision
2008-05-25T13:28:35  <dennda> treating people as object
2008-05-25T13:28:37  <johill> rather than the user data (name, email etc) being stored directly in the item metadata
2008-05-25T13:28:38  <dennda> s
2008-05-25T13:28:50  <johill> hence, you'll have to change that, it should be simple too
2008-05-25T13:29:10  <zenhase> hmm, versioned userdata ... a funny thought
2008-05-25T13:29:27  <johill> zenhase: well yeah you don't actually really want that
2008-05-25T13:29:55  <zenhase> johill: yeah, i can't really see the advantages ;)
2008-05-25T13:30:38  <zenhase> but then ... 'hmm, i think i forgot my NEW password, i will let an admin go back to my old user revision with the OLD one ...'
2008-05-25T13:30:43  <johill> heh
2008-05-25T13:30:46  <zenhase> :D
2008-05-25T13:31:35  <zenhase> well, it would be the 'basically a wiki is a collection of versioned objects'-approach
2008-05-25T13:31:44  <johill> but in any case
2008-05-25T13:31:49  <zenhase> where there is no real difference between a page and every other object
2008-05-25T13:31:54  <johill> either you revision users (and each change creates a new revision, ugh)
2008-05-25T13:32:04  <johill> or you don't, and then you have to use Item rather than Revision metadata
2008-05-25T13:32:15  <zenhase> :)
2008-05-25T13:32:16  <johill> and Lanius *doesn't* revision them, but still uses revision metadata
2008-05-25T13:32:32  <zenhase> yeah, that is definitely not a good solution
2008-05-25T13:46:18  <dennda> johill: Why should name, email, etc be stored in the item metadata rather then in the item itself?
2008-05-25T13:46:44  <dennda> metadata for me sounds like data on data
2008-05-25T13:47:23  <johill> items have no data
2008-05-25T13:47:40  <johill> items only have metadata and revisions
2008-05-25T13:49:15  <dennda> why is that?
2008-05-25T13:49:23  <dennda> doesn't sound that intuitive
2008-05-25T13:49:33  <johill> because data should be revisioned
2008-05-25T13:50:57  <dennda> Hm I think I need to take a closer look at that
2008-05-25T13:51:44  <xorAxAx> coding will start in 3 hours
2008-05-25T13:51:49  <xorAxAx> for byeongweon
2008-05-25T13:51:51  <xorAxAx> :-)
2008-05-25T13:51:54  <johill> heh
2008-05-25T13:52:08  <xorAxAx> byeongweon: will send you reply soon
2008-05-25T13:54:05  <byeongweon> xorAxAx: thanks.
2008-05-25T13:54:35  <byeongweon> xorAxAx: Is any other mercurial repository for SoC?
2008-05-25T13:54:52  <xorAxAx> byeongweon: you mean if there is a repo for your work?
2008-05-25T13:55:07  <byeongweon> yes.
2008-05-25T13:55:41  <byeongweon> I sent ssh key but I don't know where can I use.
2008-05-25T13:56:03  <xorAxAx> ThomasWaldmann is hosting the repos
2008-05-25T13:57:18  <byeongweon> yes, I know. do you know where the repository is?
2008-05-25T13:57:38  <dennda> hg.moinmo.in
2008-05-25T13:58:38  <byeongweon> oh, Thomas make some directory for soc?
2008-05-25T14:02:10  <dreimark> byeongweon: he will do
2008-05-25T14:02:10  * ThomasWaldmann is at fair in karlsruhe
2008-05-25T14:02:35  <byeongweon> ok. thanks. :-)
2008-05-25T14:03:12  <ThomasWaldmann> and yes, every student will get a repo. please just use a local hg repo until the official one is up.
2008-05-25T16:14:56  * dennda updates his user page
2008-05-25T16:15:37  * johill leaves
2008-05-25T16:16:02  <dennda> johill: did I scare you away? :)
2008-05-25T16:17:23  * johill hides behind his chair ;)
2008-05-25T17:04:50  <zenhase> ThomasWaldmann: hab dir gerade meinen neuen SSH pubkey geschickt
2008-05-25T17:05:20  <zenhase> uhm
2008-05-25T17:05:25  <zenhase> oops
2008-05-25T17:05:43  <zenhase> i meant: ThomasWaldmann: i just sent you me new SSH pubkey :)
2008-05-25T17:24:51  <dreimark> dennda: if you don't summarize results of discussions please add a note of the refering irc protocol page. Otherwise it will quite difficult to find this page  after some months.
2008-05-25T17:42:26  <dennda> dreimark: good hint, thanks
2008-05-25T17:43:22  <dennda> added it
2008-05-25T18:06:50  <dreimark> bbl
2008-05-25T20:32:16  <dennda> out of interest
2008-05-25T20:32:21  <dennda> """There must be at least 1 push to your public repo for each day you worked on your project (try to do clean commits, 1 commit per feature / per sub task)."""
2008-05-25T20:32:25  <dennda> Does that include weekends? :)
2008-05-25T20:32:51  <dennda> Or do we rely more on the milestones than on daily commits? Or how is it measured at all?
2008-05-25T20:34:01  <dreimark> dennda: it is meant that we need somehow can control that you do work on the project
2008-05-25T20:35:26  <dennda> Yes, but I was under the impression that the rule is not that flexible
2008-05-25T20:37:54  <dennda> dreimark: Thanks for that change. Did you mark it as trivial?
2008-05-25T20:38:23  <dreimark> no
2008-05-25T20:39:01  <dreimark> we have to write some evaluations about the student and the project
2008-05-25T20:39:36  <dennda> yes, I know that
2008-05-25T20:39:37  <dreimark> it is for all easier if we can see work, discussions  and progress
2008-05-25T20:41:05  <dennda> dreimark: I just thought that this model leads to thoughts like "I'll do a minimal commit and am finished for today" and causes stress if you are working twice as hard one day and only half as hard the other day
2008-05-25T20:41:36  <dennda> And, from a psychologic point of view, stress is harmful :)
2008-05-25T20:41:57  <dennda> But I don't want to discuss that rule, it was just a question out of interest
2008-05-25T20:48:14  <dreimark> bbl ~1h
2008-05-25T22:10:30  <dreimark> re
2008-05-25T22:43:55  <ThomasWaldmann> re
2008-05-25T22:44:45  <ThomasWaldmann> gizmo__: i had some interesting ldap talk today
2008-05-25T22:49:19  <xorAxAx> byeongweon: wrote you a mail ... hmm, regarding this korean-based JS-HTML editor ... i think the main problem here would be really maintainance because you would the only one speaking korean :)
2008-05-25T22:58:53  <ThomasWaldmann> zenhase: please test
2008-05-25T22:59:10  <ThomasWaldmann> mitsuhiko: your ssh pubkey?
2008-05-25T22:59:57  <mitsuhiko> ThomasWaldmann: https://launchpad.net/~mitsuhiko/+sshkeys
2008-05-25T23:01:19  <ThomasWaldmann> ok
2008-05-25T23:03:18  <ThomasWaldmann> mitsuhiko: please test
2008-05-25T23:03:40  <mitsuhiko> http://hg.thinkmo.de/ <- OSError?
2008-05-25T23:04:06  <ThomasWaldmann> hg@hg.moinmo.in
2008-05-25T23:05:24  <ThomasWaldmann> TheSheep: pawel's key still missing
2008-05-25T23:05:36  <dreimark> xorAxAx: do we need an interwikiname for the remotewiki too?
2008-05-25T23:09:29  <xorAxAx> dreimark: mainly that one
2008-05-25T23:10:18  <dreimark> ok, without that I get a traceback and with it I have to set exactly it's name in the interwikimap
2008-05-25T23:11:24  <mitsuhiko> ThomasWaldmann: alrighto. works
2008-05-25T23:13:21  <xorAxAx> dreimark: what do you mean by "without"?
2008-05-25T23:13:29  <xorAxAx> dreimark: no such wikidict entry on the page?
2008-05-25T23:14:11  <dreimark> if i don't have interwikie set  in the wikiseverconfig file
2008-05-25T23:14:50  <dreimark> (wikiconfig)
2008-05-25T23:16:09  <xorAxAx> on which side? client or server?
2008-05-25T23:17:13  <CIA-49> Thomas Waldmann <tw AT waldmann-edv DOT de> default * 3642:a54a08994dcb 1.7/.hgtags: tagged SOC2008-START
2008-05-25T23:17:17  <dreimark> on the wiki is named remoteWiki in the sync  job template
2008-05-25T23:17:28  <dreimark> tat is
2008-05-25T23:17:31  <dreimark> that
2008-05-25T23:18:02  <xorAxAx> and you get a client-side traceback?
2008-05-25T23:18:10  <dreimark> yes
2008-05-25T23:18:25  <xorAxAx> did you attach it somewhere?
2008-05-25T23:18:53  <dreimark> have to learn first how I can do this with the xo
2008-05-25T23:18:55  <dreimark> ;)
2008-05-25T23:29:56  <dreimark> xorAxAx: http://moinmo.in/MoinMoinBugs/MissingInterWikiNameOnRemoteSide
2008-05-25T23:43:49  * ThomasWaldmann created the student branches (except storage stuff)
2008-05-25T23:46:33  <xorAxAx> repos :)
2008-05-25T23:46:44  <ThomasWaldmann> yes
2008-05-25T23:51:59  <CIA-49> Reimar Bauer <rb.proj AT googlemail DOT com> default * 3643:8fbdd3667488 1.7/MoinMoin/parser/text_csv.py: parser.text_csv: simplified code for removing empty lines
2008-05-25T23:54:44  <xorAxAx> dreimark: i dont see how the method call should fail
2008-05-25T23:54:57  <xorAxAx> dreimark: whats the version number of the moin on the server?
2008-05-25T23:56:07  <dreimark> both current 1.7
2008-05-25T23:58:22  <xorAxAx> dreimark: the interwikiname method cannot really fail, except if it was called without allowance of null values in the xmlrpc response
2008-05-25T23:58:25  <xorAxAx> but that shouldnt happen