MoinMoin: MoinMoinChat/Logs/moin-dev/2008-08-25

2008-08-25T04:53:17  <comphappy> how hard would it be to grab a list of users in a group
2008-08-25T04:53:42  <comphappy> so I have a file TeamGroup and I want a server side script to grab a list of all the users
2008-08-25T04:54:21  <comphappy> for a cron job
2008-08-25T08:40:18  <ThomasWaldmann> moin
2008-08-25T11:11:13  <dreimark> moin
2008-08-25T12:33:57  <ThomasWaldmann> moin
2008-08-25T12:46:16  <PawelPacana> moin
2008-08-25T13:30:59  <TheSheep> moin
2008-08-25T13:35:09  <dennda> TheSheep: ping
2008-08-25T13:38:21  <TheSheep> dennda: yes?
2008-08-25T13:39:09  <dennda> TheSheep: I need your well trained eye :-)
2008-08-25T13:40:19  <dennda> just a sec
2008-08-25T13:40:36  <PawelPacana> TheSheep: eager to become a cyclope? ;)
2008-08-25T13:41:55  <dennda> haha
2008-08-25T13:42:58  <dennda> TheSheep: http://the-space-station.com/preview/
2008-08-25T13:43:25  <dennda> I need constructive criticism and a suggestion for the default background color :-)
2008-08-25T13:46:23  <ThomasWaldmann> dennda: the font should have a bit more contrast to bg (esp. the dark grey stuff)
2008-08-25T13:48:33  <dennda> yeah maybe. I guess a lot of people will moan because of bright text on dark background rather than the other way around
2008-08-25T13:49:29  <TheSheep> dennda: increase the line spacing and maybe even the letter spacing minimally
2008-08-25T13:50:05  <dennda> TheSheep: of the normal text you mean?
2008-08-25T13:50:32  <TheSheep> dennda: yes, you need more leading on dark background
2008-08-25T13:50:58  <TheSheep> dennda: also try some less repetitive filler text to see how it looks
2008-08-25T13:51:04  <TheSheep> dennda: like Lorem ipsum
2008-08-25T13:51:25  <dennda> hm it's not line-spacing. I guess line-height isn't leading either
2008-08-25T13:51:35  <PawelPacana> lipsum.com :)
2008-08-25T13:51:35  <TheSheep> dennda: what's the intended audience? age? sex? geographical height?
2008-08-25T13:51:49  <dennda> TheSheep: planet.ubuntu readers ;)
2008-08-25T13:51:51  <TheSheep> dennda: line-height and letter-spacing
2008-08-25T13:52:02  <dennda> line-height isn't leading, is it?
2008-08-25T13:52:09  <dennda> leading is the space between two lines
2008-08-25T13:52:39  <TheSheep> dennda: leading are the strips of lead you put between pieces of type to make them be farther apart
2008-08-25T13:53:04  <dennda> yeah
2008-08-25T13:53:31  <TheSheep> try line-height: 1.3 or even 1.4
2008-08-25T13:53:37  <dennda> oh actually
2008-08-25T13:53:41  <dennda> between pieces of type?
2008-08-25T13:53:53  <dennda> afair I was taught it's between the lines
2008-08-25T13:54:02  <dennda> that makes it more narrow :-)
2008-08-25T13:54:15  <dennda> or what unit. em?
2008-08-25T13:55:06  <TheSheep> dennda: no unit
2008-08-25T13:55:35  <TheSheep> dennda: it's a multiplier of type's height
2008-08-25T13:55:58  <TheSheep> dennda: also, try some text with multiple paragraphs
2008-08-25T13:56:09  <TheSheep> dennda: the margin under your photo is too small
2008-08-25T13:56:50  <dennda> TheSheep: refresh
2008-08-25T13:57:03  <dennda> I just added lorem ipsum
2008-08-25T13:58:06  <TheSheep> dennda: try letter-spacing: 0.05em
2008-08-25T13:59:26  <dennda> TheSheep: F5
2008-08-25T14:04:54  <dennda> ok, raised the brightnes of the text slightly
2008-08-25T14:07:56  <dennda> TheSheep: better now?
2008-08-25T14:26:27  <TheSheep> dennda: I think the line spacing is too large now
2008-08-25T14:26:45  <TheSheep> dennda: definitely too large
2008-08-25T14:39:52  <zenhase> hi
2008-08-25T14:41:41  <zenhase> ThomasWaldmann: uh, i see you worked on the docs and added a test.wsgi to 1.8
2008-08-25T14:46:13  <ThomasWaldmann> zenhase: yes, still some stuff missing, though
2008-08-25T14:46:49  <ThomasWaldmann> zenhase: be careful when merging moin/1.8, there will be conflicts/problems
2008-08-25T14:46:50  <zenhase> changed it's form quite a bit from where i started
2008-08-25T14:47:06  <zenhase> any particular things to look out for?
2008-08-25T14:47:09  <ThomasWaldmann> i wanted to have something very different from the old doc style
2008-08-25T14:47:40  <dennda> ThomasWaldmann: letter-spacing or line-height? :P
2008-08-25T14:47:41  <zenhase> yeah, you start out with explaining how to setup a WSGI environment :o
2008-08-25T14:48:37  <ThomasWaldmann> zenhase: it's simply that I want first have test.wsgi (test.cgi?) working
2008-08-25T14:49:09  <ThomasWaldmann> there should be some hints about how to do that on server admin level
2008-08-25T14:49:44  <ThomasWaldmann> (but there won't be too much support for that)
2008-08-25T14:49:58  <zenhase> hmm
2008-08-25T14:50:30  <ThomasWaldmann> after wsgi works, that's the point where our real docs start (and where you may ask moin installation questions)
2008-08-25T14:50:31  <zenhase> i still wonder if this is necessary
2008-08-25T14:51:10  <ThomasWaldmann> well, just watch #moin for a while
2008-08-25T14:52:01  <ThomasWaldmann> people are asking basic web server administration/configuration questions
2008-08-25T14:52:44  <ThomasWaldmann> and if they don't find very detailed docs about that or just don't get it, they tell that moin / moin doc sucks
2008-08-25T14:53:06  <dennda> err sorry ThomasWaldmann, I of course meant TheSheep :-)
2008-08-25T14:53:18  <ThomasWaldmann> I noticed :)
2008-08-25T14:53:23  <zenhase> i mean if you go to large extents of explaining how to make test.wsgi work or test.cgi and then afterwards moin ... why not be extensive in the first place?
2008-08-25T14:53:59  <ThomasWaldmann> i don't want to have large docs about how to make test.wsgi work
2008-08-25T14:54:34  <ThomasWaldmann> a few tipps and pointer, maybe a config fragment, that's it
2008-08-25T14:54:59  <ThomasWaldmann> but we won't explain every single chmod/chown/cp ...
2008-08-25T14:55:29  <ThomasWaldmann> i.e. we document OUR stuff, not apache
2008-08-25T14:55:47  <ThomasWaldmann> and not linux
2008-08-25T15:00:38  <zenhase> hmm
2008-08-25T15:01:19  <zenhase> well, i can accept the part of not explaining every detail, that is ok
2008-08-25T15:01:51  <zenhase> i am just right now a bit confused by the page
2008-08-25T15:06:28  <zenhase> hmm
2008-08-25T15:06:44  <zenhase> builtin wsgi fileserver?
2008-08-25T15:07:35  <ThomasWaldmann> for the static stuff
2008-08-25T15:07:43  <zenhase> you want to serve static from mod_wsgi (or any of the wsgi adapters) through the static-fileserver?
2008-08-25T15:08:05  <ThomasWaldmann> yes, you did implement that, right?
2008-08-25T15:10:09  <zenhase> well, let's have a look at what is involved here
2008-08-25T15:10:42  <zenhase> moin serves static files from /moin_staticXXX/ urls by default
2008-08-25T15:11:14  <zenhase> now let's say the wsgi app will be run under /wiki/ after configuration
2008-08-25T15:11:52  <zenhase> it won't be able to serve those static files
2008-08-25T15:12:27  <zenhase> -> user has to change the url_prefix to something like /wiki/moin_staticXXX
2008-08-25T15:13:47  <zenhase> i don't know what is more difficult to explain ... a simple directive for the webserver that serves up the static files or that the user has to ensure that the everything maps to the WSGI application
2008-08-25T15:14:19  <zenhase> and every webserver is way way better at serving static files than anything we can come up with in a python static files middleware
2008-08-25T15:15:28  <ThomasWaldmann> well, a good admin will know that simple directive for his web server :)
2008-08-25T15:15:59  <ThomasWaldmann> a user needing explanations will have it easier if just moin handles that, because it is the same explanation not matter which web server it is
2008-08-25T15:16:34  <ThomasWaldmann> (and we can change how the default url_prefix is generated btw)
2008-08-25T15:17:50  <zenhase> of course we can change that and let everything play together a bit more nicely ... but to answer your question about implementation: no, i didn't do that kind of change yet
2008-08-25T15:19:02  <zenhase> in this matter i am still stuck with problems like 'where to configure anything, that takes place before actual MoinMoin is entered. i have no access to the .cfg that early'
2008-08-25T15:19:55  <zenhase> that is why the static file serving works (and is even only applied as middleware) in the standalone server right now
2008-08-25T15:20:05  <zenhase> s/works/only works/
2008-08-25T15:22:31  <ThomasWaldmann> ah ok, maybe i confused it with some code in standalone
2008-08-25T15:23:21  <ThomasWaldmann> ok, as long as we have no other solution, add some highlevel docs for the static stuff
2008-08-25T15:26:58  <zenhase> highlevel as in "point your webserver to serve $url_prefix_static from $path_to_staticfiles"?
2008-08-25T15:27:15  <ThomasWaldmann> yes
2008-08-25T15:27:46  <ThomasWaldmann> and tell that "static files are in our dist archive under wiki/htdocs/"
2008-08-25T15:28:27  <ThomasWaldmann> maybe also hint that robots.txt and favicon.ico might need special treatment
2008-08-25T15:28:36  <zenhase> this part i don't really get either ... about 'you may install moinmoin in the system or you may not'
2008-08-25T15:29:17  <zenhase> i mean the page is expected to be used by experienced system administrators
2008-08-25T15:29:29  <ThomasWaldmann> You may, but you do not need to, use setup.py to copy the moin files to system locations:  <-- this?
2008-08-25T15:30:24  <zenhase> yeah ... the problem is, that you then always have to account for the fact that the person may or may not have put the files somewhere central in the system and that you have to account for the code of MoinMoin to be found
2008-08-25T15:30:56  <ThomasWaldmann> i already wrote that part of the docs.
2008-08-25T15:31:15  <zenhase> either the people the page is meant for know what they do or they don't ... but i find it somehow a bit jumpy in what level of experience it attributes to the readers
2008-08-25T15:31:16  <ThomasWaldmann> they currently just tell to use sys.path.insert
2008-08-25T15:32:10  <ThomasWaldmann> well, setup.py options is not required knowledge
2008-08-25T15:32:45  <ThomasWaldmann> for python geeks this might be all day stuff, but I don't require every moin user to have experience with installing python code
2008-08-25T15:33:01  <ThomasWaldmann> (or knowing that he doesn't need to have to install it)
2008-08-25T15:33:19  <zenhase> ok
2008-08-25T15:33:59  <ThomasWaldmann> and the may / not need should get clearer after you read the next item
2008-08-25T15:34:59  <ThomasWaldmann> in general, I tried to tell how stuff works and WHY it is needed - to get people know what they do
2008-08-25T15:35:06  <dennda> TheSheep: I adjusted letter-spacing and line-height a bit
2008-08-25T15:43:20  <TheSheep> dennda: I think the line height is still a little to big. Were these headings small-caps before? I thought they were looking better before...
2008-08-25T15:45:03  <dennda> umm aren't they anymore?
2008-08-25T15:45:24  <TheSheep> dennda: they are small-caps now
2008-08-25T15:45:33  <TheSheep> dennda: but I think it doesn't look good
2008-08-25T15:45:36  <TheSheep> dennda: nevermind
2008-08-25T15:45:39  <dennda> ah
2008-08-25T15:45:42  <dennda> lemme check
2008-08-25T15:45:57  <TheSheep> dennda: the left and right margins of the main text should be larger in my opinin
2008-08-25T15:46:10  <dennda> hm looks much better than without, imho
2008-08-25T17:03:38  <zenhase> hmm
2008-08-25T17:04:10  <zenhase> Absolute path of this script     /
2008-08-25T17:05:37  <zenhase> ThomasWaldmann: either you meant 'current directory' or 'script directory' ... what information was it meant to be?
2008-08-25T17:20:20  <ThomasWaldmann> hm?
2008-08-25T17:21:05  <ThomasWaldmann> dennda: btw, ubucon is likely to overlap with CA journey of some moin mentors
2008-08-25T17:22:33  <zenhase> ubucon?
2008-08-25T17:34:10  <dennda> ok, no worries
2008-08-25T17:36:19  <ThomasWaldmann> dennda: shouldn't hold you back, though :)
2008-08-25T17:36:28  <dennda> it won't
2008-08-25T17:36:32  <dennda> I will be there
2008-08-25T17:36:52  <ThomasWaldmann> I meant that for arranging some moin event. :)
2008-08-25T17:41:38  <zenhase> hmm, ubuntu-conference :)
2008-08-25T18:31:23  <dreimark> bbl
2008-08-25T19:18:48  <johill> ThomasWaldmann: so the guy you pointed to me with openid trouble, Richard Taylor
2008-08-25T19:19:15  <johill> ThomasWaldmann: it's a mod_python related bug in moin or mod python, it doesn't, as everything else, have POST variables override GET variables like it should
2008-08-25T19:40:05  <ThomasWaldmann> moin does evaluate both iirc, in a specific order
2008-08-25T19:40:25  <ThomasWaldmann> but maybe for mod_python it trusts mod_python to do that correctly
2008-08-25T19:40:29  <ThomasWaldmann> johill:
2008-08-25T19:40:46  <ThomasWaldmann> you recommended mod_wsgi to him? :)
2008-08-25T19:45:47  <johill> ThomasWaldmann: yes, and that works
2008-08-25T19:46:11  <johill> ThomasWaldmann: yes, but mod python apparently does it incorrectly, moin wants POST to override GET and the openid code in once place relies on that
2008-08-25T19:46:23  <johill> would be fairly easy to change that though, by just adding a URL to the form
2008-08-25T19:46:40  <ThomasWaldmann> we won't have mod_python docs when moving to wsgi, so maybe that crap will be over soon
2008-08-25T19:46:51  <johill> anyhow, I'll just ignore anyone running mod python
2008-08-25T19:47:37  <ThomasWaldmann> iirc, I have read the mod_python docs about qs/post args processing some time ago and iirc they documented that it works the way moin wants it
2008-08-25T19:48:08  <johill> well, clearly it doesn't, but I don't see any code in moin that I can blame
2008-08-25T19:48:17  <johill> hence, it's gotta be mod python
2008-08-25T19:49:00  <johill> but mod python is a mess anyway
2008-08-25T19:50:12  <johill> I'll make a bug page and you can then do whatever you want with it
2008-08-25T19:50:33  <ThomasWaldmann> tag it CategoryMoinMoinNoBug :)
2008-08-25T19:51:04  <ThomasWaldmann> and CategoryModPythonSucks :))
2008-08-25T19:51:34  <ThomasWaldmann> brb
2008-08-25T19:52:54  <johill> heh