MoinMoin: MoinMoinChat/Logs/moin-dev/2008-12-14

2008-12-14T00:51:06  <TheSheep> ThomasWaldmann: yeah, Pawel used that, but it didn't work well with merging
2008-12-14T00:52:30  <ThomasWaldmann> oh, i thought the code still depends on that
2008-12-14T01:04:27  <TheSheep> the repository was getting corrupted somehow
2008-12-14T09:44:45  *** irc.freenode.net sets mode: +o ChanServ
2008-12-14T11:18:35  <ThomasWaldmann> moin
2008-12-14T11:49:58  <dreimark> moin
2008-12-14T12:19:33  * dreimark wonders about all the migrating questions on the ML. 
2008-12-14T12:20:05  <dreimark> will look later in the archive. I think it is answered a dozen times
2008-12-14T12:21:16  <ThomasWaldmann> it seems to be hard to just looks into docs/ or to read the stuff linked from the download page
2008-12-14T14:05:36  <CIA-27> Thomas Waldmann <tw AT waldmann-edv DOT de> default * 4215:fc4e32fdd922 1.8/MoinMoin/config/multiconfig.py: remove exception handling from password checker because exceptions can't deal with unicode correctly
2008-12-14T14:28:50  <grzywacz> ?
2008-12-14T14:29:42  <ThomasWaldmann> http://paste.pocoo.org/show/95294/
2008-12-14T14:30:45  <ThomasWaldmann> (they have no __unicode__ method)
2008-12-14T14:34:49  <grzywacz> oic
2008-12-14T15:06:19  <ThomasWaldmann> btw, about http://moinmo.in/MoinMoinBugs/1.8_Anchor_Macro_removes_underscore
2008-12-14T15:06:57  <ThomasWaldmann> we could change that code to not strip all underscores, but that would need some content changes for people who relied on that behaviour
2008-12-14T15:07:16  <ThomasWaldmann> so the question is WHEN do we fix that?
2008-12-14T15:07:31  <ThomasWaldmann> a) ASAP (1.8.1)
2008-12-14T15:07:44  <ThomasWaldmann> b) 1.9
2008-12-14T15:08:26  <ThomasWaldmann> pro a) is that many people did not yet move to 1.8, so the problem is not that big
2008-12-14T15:08:48  <ThomasWaldmann> contra a) is that we're changing behaviour with a bugfix release
2008-12-14T15:09:19  <TheSheep> the behavior was introduced with 1.8, so we can call it a bug :)
2008-12-14T15:09:33  <ThomasWaldmann> contra b) - if we wait that long, more people will have problems
2008-12-14T15:09:41  <ThomasWaldmann> TheSheep: wasn't it 1.7 rather?
2008-12-14T15:10:06  * TheSheep scratches his head
2008-12-14T15:10:28  * TheSheep looks into the repo
2008-12-14T15:15:01  <TheSheep> you are right
2008-12-14T15:15:03  <TheSheep> http://hg.moinmo.in/moin/1.7/annotate/a7dc3cc36362/MoinMoin/wikiutil.py#l2104
2008-12-14T15:16:15  <TheSheep> the question is, is this behavior unwanted?
2008-12-14T15:16:33  <TheSheep> browsers treat underscores in strange ways...
2008-12-14T15:16:48  <ThomasWaldmann> foo_bar is a valid name
2008-12-14T15:17:10  <TheSheep> ut is it a valid id?
2008-12-14T15:17:13  <TheSheep> but
2008-12-14T15:17:31  <ThomasWaldmann> i think so
2008-12-14T15:17:46  <ThomasWaldmann> _foobar is not
2008-12-14T15:19:40  <TheSheep> ID and NAME tokens must begin with a letter ([A-Za-z]) and may be followed by any number of letters, digits ([0-9]), hyphens ("-"), underscores ("_"), colons (":"), and periods (".").
2008-12-14T15:19:49  <TheSheep> from http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/types.html#h-6.2
2008-12-14T15:23:33  <ThomasWaldmann> so, do you remember some case where _ is broken (against that spec?)
2008-12-14T15:23:52  <TheSheep> ThomasWaldmann: yes, in css
2008-12-14T15:24:03  <TheSheep> ThomasWaldmann: but *those* ids are not being used in css
2008-12-14T15:32:33  <ThomasWaldmann> hmm, we maybe want generic id generation
2008-12-14T15:32:43  <ThomasWaldmann> so the problem in css with foo_bar is?
2008-12-14T15:34:42  <TheSheep> https://developer.mozilla.org/En/Underscores_in_class_and_ID_Names
2008-12-14T15:35:11  <TheSheep> The CSS1 specification, published in its final form in 1996, did not allow for the use of underscores in class and ID names unless they were "escaped."
2008-12-14T15:35:18  <TheSheep> p.urgent\_note {color: maroon;}
2008-12-14T15:36:00  <TheSheep> I think that article neatly summarizes the history of web standards :)
2008-12-14T15:36:50  <TheSheep> I suppose the support looks different today
2008-12-14T15:37:45  <ThomasWaldmann> ok, so we add a css=False flag to the id/name generation?
2008-12-14T15:38:26  <TheSheep> maybe once we touch this, we could replace _ with - on css=True?
2008-12-14T15:38:50  <TheSheep> not sure it helps anything though
2008-12-14T15:39:58  <TheSheep> ThomasWaldmann: in practice, you don't use the automatically generated IDs in css
2008-12-14T15:40:30  <TheSheep> ThomasWaldmann: all you need is make sure you never use underscores in the IDs that come from themes and other 'templatey' parts
2008-12-14T15:40:35  <ThomasWaldmann> doesn't it go all through the same machinery?
2008-12-14T15:41:14  <TheSheep> ThomasWaldmann: the difference is they are specified verbatim in the code, not generated
2008-12-14T15:41:42  <TheSheep> in particular, not generated from user input
2008-12-14T15:41:46  <ThomasWaldmann> sure, but still...
2008-12-14T15:42:07  <TheSheep> do you trust yourself enough? ;)
2008-12-14T15:42:34  <TheSheep> I gotta run home, be back in an hour or so
2008-12-14T16:25:55  <TheSheep> re
2008-12-14T16:26:10  <ThomasWaldmann> wb :)
2008-12-14T17:23:41  <ThomasWaldmann> TheSheep: the html formatter _open() will pass all ids through make_id_unique
2008-12-14T17:24:57  <ThomasWaldmann> except if you tell it is_unique=True somehow
2008-12-14T17:36:54  <TheSheep> ThomasWaldmann: a good rule of thumb would be whether the tag has any contents
2008-12-14T17:37:11  <TheSheep> ThomasWaldmann: if it does, there is a good chance it will be used in css
2008-12-14T17:38:26  <ThomasWaldmann> i don't think _open() sees contents
2008-12-14T17:44:43  <TheSheep> true
2008-12-14T20:42:22  <dreimark> re
2008-12-14T21:32:34  <ThomasWaldmann> ok, another topic: docs for 1.9
2008-12-14T21:33:05  <ThomasWaldmann> I'd like to reduce the amount of wiki pages in the distributed page set.
2008-12-14T21:35:22  <ThomasWaldmann> so, these alternatives are there:
2008-12-14T21:36:01  <ThomasWaldmann> move the install docs (pages NewDocs*) to master19 wiki, but do not include them in SystemPagesGroup
2008-12-14T21:36:12  <ThomasWaldmann> or
2008-12-14T21:36:26  <ThomasWaldmann> keep them on moinmo.in main wiki
2008-12-14T21:36:30  <ThomasWaldmann> or
2008-12-14T21:36:39  <ThomasWaldmann> make a separate docs wiki
2008-12-14T21:37:09  <TheSheep> the last one has the advantage of having all search results relevant
2008-12-14T21:37:30  <ThomasWaldmann> yes, that was the idea behind that one
2008-12-14T21:37:34  <TheSheep> what's the difference between 1 and 3
2008-12-14T21:37:51  <ThomasWaldmann> otoh, we have only 5 pages yet
2008-12-14T21:38:03  <ThomasWaldmann> thus not much to search
2008-12-14T21:38:35  <ThomasWaldmann> 1 is existing master19 wiki, 3 is new docs(19)? wiki
2008-12-14T21:39:07  <dreimark> do we want those pages translated?
2008-12-14T21:39:23  <dreimark> s/o/e/
2008-12-14T21:39:32  <ThomasWaldmann> i personally don't want admin stuff translated
2008-12-14T21:39:51  <ThomasWaldmann> that does more harm (not being uptodate) than good
2008-12-14T21:41:33  <dreimark> there is an additional possibility. lives in master* wiki will be copied to docs
2008-12-14T21:41:57  <ThomasWaldmann> dreimark: you mean docs/*.html ?
2008-12-14T21:42:01  <dreimark> yes
2008-12-14T21:42:10  <ThomasWaldmann> of course we can do that
2008-12-14T21:42:29  <dreimark> then it is also clear that we don't want to have translations
2008-12-14T21:42:37  <dreimark> or that they are not used
2008-12-14T21:44:40  <ThomasWaldmann> (the separate docs wiki would make even more sense if we would use it for additional documentation, but that needs people doing that :)
2008-12-14T21:45:51  <dreimark> we can go on with that later. I think currently it is more effort to watch all these wikis to have them uptodate
2008-12-14T21:46:53  <dreimark> I think we may want to establish this for or with 2.0
2008-12-14T22:09:54  <ThomasWaldmann> ok, for now I'll move NewDocs* to master19:InstallDocs*
2008-12-14T22:58:52  <ThomasWaldmann>  http://master19.moinmo.in/InstallDocs