MoinMoin: MoinMoinChat/Logs/moin-dev/2009-05-07

2009-05-07T00:34:47  <ThomasWaldmann> re
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2009-05-07T08:08:05  <dreimark> moin
2009-05-07T08:41:22  <ThomasWaldmann> moin
2009-05-07T09:25:10  <xorAxAx> moin
2009-05-07T09:39:47  <CIA-18> Thomas Waldmann <tw AT waldmann-edv DOT de> default * 5712:c8e7edba6a4b 2.0-storage/MoinMoin/macro/_tests/test_Hits.py: removed test for removed code
2009-05-07T09:39:51  <CIA-18> Thomas Waldmann <tw AT waldmann-edv DOT de> default * 5713:6631a89d38d1 2.0-storage/MoinMoin/items/__init__.py: items: improve save behaviour, add logger
2009-05-07T09:41:04  <ThomasWaldmann> dreimark: ^^ it first checks file upload, so if you upload a file, it will ignore the textarea contents now
2009-05-07T09:41:57  <ThomasWaldmann> btw, if you save a completely empty textarea, it will be the same as when using "delete item"
2009-05-07T09:43:16  <ThomasWaldmann> (and when thinking about this behaviour, I guess we have to get rid of "delete" acl right, it doesn't make sense)
2009-05-07T11:01:07  <xorAxAx> revoking delete permissions hides the choice to delete a page
2009-05-07T11:01:44  <xorAxAx> but on the technical level, thats not a good/robust way to achieve anything, indeed
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2009-05-07T11:45:57  <ThomasWaldmann> xorAxAx: not even on the permissions level. if revoking delete permission does not hold back someone storing an empty, almost empty or crap revision
2009-05-07T11:46:12  <ThomasWaldmann> ... then it is a bit pointless.
2009-05-07T11:46:15  <xorAxAx> yes, i meant that level :)
2009-05-07T11:47:12  <ThomasWaldmann> we could even remove the separate delete UI item completely and handle it as a special case of modify.
2009-05-07T11:47:45  <ThomasWaldmann> (the new "edit" is called "modify")
2009-05-07T11:48:13  <ThomasWaldmann> maybe just a checkbox [ ] delete this item...
2009-05-07T11:50:36  <xorAxAx> na, thats counterintuitive and hides the fact that deleted items /are/ handled differently than perceivedly empty ones
2009-05-07T11:51:02  <ThomasWaldmann> "modify" action handles creation of an item, so deletion would not be that far fetched
2009-05-07T11:51:41  <ThomasWaldmann> perceived empty means just a bunch of blanks or what?
2009-05-07T11:52:54  <ThomasWaldmann> (btw, the current 2.0-storage code does auto-set meta[DELETED] if len(data) == 0)
2009-05-07T11:53:40  <ThomasWaldmann> (but, the current UI doesn't make much difference in rendering deleted vs. non-deleted items)
2009-05-07T11:58:39  <ThomasWaldmann> the current UI is for developers, though, not for end users.
2009-05-07T12:00:04  <ThomasWaldmann> hmm, maybe the whole concept of "item being deleted" needs more thought
2009-05-07T12:00:50  <ThomasWaldmann> I mean, assume that we do not auto-delete emtpy items. What is the difference between an empty and a empty/deleted item?
2009-05-07T12:02:51  <ThomasWaldmann> And in case we find that this different is pointless, we could also find that we basically do not need the deleted flag at all maybe.
2009-05-07T12:04:07  <xorAxAx> but advising the user to delete all chars to delete a text page is a bit weird
2009-05-07T12:04:16  <ThomasWaldmann> in <2.0 we use it for recent changes, so you see if someone has deleted a page. but we also could show it as change (and the diff will show that everything was removed)
2009-05-07T12:04:19  <xorAxAx> UI wise, it must be called delete
2009-05-07T12:04:34  <xorAxAx> technically, its a matter of the model, i think both is posible
2009-05-07T12:04:38  <ThomasWaldmann> yeah, for simplicity
2009-05-07T12:05:11  <xorAxAx> on RC it should be still called delete because it will make the page vanish from a few places like page lists
2009-05-07T12:05:49  <ThomasWaldmann> and the different handling on RC doesn't help anything either. someone deleting a valuable page is as bad as someone replacing it with content == "foo!"
2009-05-07T12:06:15  <xorAxAx> nevertheless its useful to know that somebody intended to vandalize it
2009-05-07T12:06:23  <xorAxAx> "not vandalize, but delete"
2009-05-07T12:06:27  <ThomasWaldmann> hmm, right, page list makes the difference
2009-05-07T12:06:37  <xorAxAx> the intention is a different one
2009-05-07T12:07:06  <ThomasWaldmann> hmm
2009-05-07T12:07:51  <ThomasWaldmann> otoh, if we delete pages by renaming them to Trash/*, we could filter out "deleted" pages by name
2009-05-07T12:08:45  <ThomasWaldmann> that would also solve some other issues, like renaming page A to B and B exists, but is deleted.
2009-05-07T12:10:17  <ThomasWaldmann> i feel like some stuff is getting much simpler by doing it that way
2009-05-07T12:11:39  <ThomasWaldmann> the page list could have a checkbox / url arg to "show trash pages"
2009-05-07T12:12:58  <ThomasWaldmann> dennda: ^^
2009-05-07T12:15:06  <ThomasWaldmann> PawelPacana: ^^
2009-05-07T12:15:41  <ThomasWaldmann> brb
2009-05-07T12:42:51  * dreimark thinks we should also think on not text like items. you can't add blanks to an image do get it removed
2009-05-07T12:43:39  <ThomasWaldmann> (11:48) < ThomasWal> maybe just a checkbox [ ] delete this item...
2009-05-07T12:46:29  <dreimark> TheSheep:  what is that action refactoring page name you started
2009-05-07T12:46:53  <dreimark> I think we should look on that and try to do it for the next ui
2009-05-07T12:47:14  <dreimark> may be it will kill most of the more actions menu
2009-05-07T12:47:15  <ThomasWaldmann> hmm, maybe some DELETED metadata would be still useful for backends like mercurial (for hg, it is different whether there is some 0 byte file or the file is deleted)
2009-05-07T12:47:28  <TheSheep> dreimark: http://moinmo.in/ActionsAsViewsOperationsAndExports
2009-05-07T12:47:38  <TheSheep> dreimark: it needs more thinking
2009-05-07T12:47:43  <ThomasWaldmann> otoh, that is a backend detail, not sure we need that on higher level
2009-05-07T12:47:55  <TheSheep> dreimark: I will try to add to it
2009-05-07T12:52:56  <dreimark> View/Operations/Eports which don't have global characteristics may be only needed on the items page
2009-05-07T12:57:54  <dreimark> ThomasWaldmann: do you've ripped out the moin parser too?
2009-05-07T12:59:53  <dreimark> (may be it uses only the wrong mimetype)
2009-05-07T13:01:35  <dreimark> we should not do to muchminor mimetype  separation.
2009-05-07T13:02:36  <dreimark> for some items e.g. common image types  a major mimetype should be used.
2009-05-07T13:04:38  <dreimark> TheSheep: do you know if svg images color could be changed by css. That would make it easy to use them with differen colored themes
2009-05-07T13:05:41  <dreimark> http://www.selfsvg.info/?section=4.9
2009-05-07T13:06:03  <dreimark> looks like it can
2009-05-07T13:06:36  <ThomasWaldmann> dreimark: try text/moin for now
2009-05-07T13:07:24  <dreimark> ok
2009-05-07T13:09:08  <dreimark> ThomasWaldmann: we should name it text/moin because of text/creole etc.
2009-05-07T13:12:08  <ThomasWaldmann> we need a good plan for mimetypes. either we use the standard for it (would mandate that we use text/x-moin as long as we did not register it) or we just use something that looks similar, but do not claim it is a official mimetype
2009-05-07T13:15:46  <dreimark> yes
2009-05-07T13:27:03  <TheSheep> ThomasWaldmann: how about writing an spec for the markup and registering it with IANA? :)
2009-05-07T13:30:04  <ThomasWaldmann> you want to write the spec? :)
2009-05-07T13:30:36  <dreimark> we could do it on a wiki page
2009-05-07T13:31:02  <ThomasWaldmann> sounds like lots of work on a moving target
2009-05-07T13:31:36  <ThomasWaldmann> I guess I rather use x-...
2009-05-07T13:32:06  <TheSheep> ThomasWaldmann: I think you don't even need a spec for IANA
2009-05-07T13:32:15  <TheSheep> ThomasWaldmann: you only need an organisation
2009-05-07T13:32:30  <TheSheep> I will have to research that
2009-05-07T13:32:32  <dreimark> http://www.iana.org/cgi-bin/mediatypes.pl
2009-05-07T13:32:46  <dreimark> may be it is easier but I found only that form
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2009-05-07T14:42:58  <CIA-18> Thomas Waldmann <tw AT waldmann-edv DOT de> default * 5714:1ee7abd8f30c 2.0-storage/MoinMoin/ (action/modify.py items/__init__.py): item object: rename method
2009-05-07T14:42:59  <CIA-18> Thomas Waldmann <tw AT waldmann-edv DOT de> default * 5715:8f9d5bee8601 2.0-storage/MoinMoin/ (items/__init__.py templates/modify_binary.html): modify action: make delete a special case of modify
2009-05-07T15:15:40  <CIA-18> Thomas Waldmann <tw AT waldmann-edv DOT de> default * 5716:c59fe8d74c2a 2.0-storage/MoinMoin/ (4 files in 3 dirs): modify: better layout, fixed comment processing, remove delete/revert from actions menu
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2009-05-07T16:55:11  <dreimark> we need to be careful with renaming of a MimeType (because we don't convert)
2009-05-07T17:17:15  <CIA-18> Thomas Waldmann <tw AT waldmann-edv DOT de> default * 5717:48d0b24a0f67 2.0-storage/MoinMoin/ (items/__init__.py templates/show_nonexistent.html): items: add support for some more mimetypes, minor fixes
2009-05-07T17:18:10  <ThomasWaldmann> creole, svg, python, diff, ... ^^
2009-05-07T17:21:50  <CIA-18> Thomas Waldmann <tw AT waldmann-edv DOT de> default * 5718:4fab7bcfb8a8 2.0-storage/MoinMoin/parser/ (5 files): remove parsers that were just compatibility wrappers around highlight parser, should be handled by migration script or fs17 backend
2009-05-07T17:23:38  <dreimark> :) wil look later have to prepare me for a session for tom.
2009-05-07T17:24:16  <dreimark> setting up some usual stuff and a MM wiki
2009-05-07T18:07:35  <ThomasWaldmann> waldi: Content-Type: text/x-moin; charset=utf-8; revision=1.9;    <-- does that look ok, can we use anything else?
2009-05-07T18:17:13  <TheSheep> ThomasWaldmann: do you really need charset?
2009-05-07T18:17:26  <TheSheep> ThomasWaldmann: can't we just say it's always utf-8?
2009-05-07T18:22:03  <TheSheep> A registration may be placed in the vendor tree by anyone who needs to interchange files associated with the particular product.
2009-05-07T18:22:54  <TheSheep> text/moin.wiki
2009-05-07T18:23:18  <TheSheep> sorry
2009-05-07T18:23:23  <TheSheep> text/vnd.moin.wiki
2009-05-07T18:24:32  <TheSheep> However, with the simplified registration procedures described above for vendor and personal trees, it should rarely, if ever, be necessary to use unregistered experimental types.  Therefore, use of both "x-" and "x." forms is discouraged.
2009-05-07T18:25:07  <CIA-18> Thomas Waldmann <tw AT waldmann-edv DOT de> default * 5719:e63c7bf674c5 2.0-storage/MoinMoin/items/__init__.py: items: better grouping for nonexistent item display
2009-05-07T18:25:09  <CIA-18> Thomas Waldmann <tw AT waldmann-edv DOT de> default * 5720:4df3dee47b6e 2.0-storage/MoinMoin/items/__init__.py: text items: simplify and fix line endings conversion
2009-05-07T18:26:08  <ThomasWaldmann> TheSheep: yes i read that. still that registration stuff is also discouraging...
2009-05-07T18:26:26  <TheSheep> that's true for all beaurocracy
2009-05-07T18:26:35  <TheSheep> maybe we should post on that list for advice?
2009-05-07T18:26:45  <ThomasWaldmann> about charset: yes, ever utf-8, as it is now, would be simpler.
2009-05-07T18:27:05  <ThomasWaldmann> but we sometimes had cases when people had other text charsets within moin and it fell over it.
2009-05-07T18:27:24  <TheSheep> I'd say that's not valid moin markup then :)
2009-05-07T18:27:42  <ThomasWaldmann> and when looking at stuff like x-tar, I don't feel alone :D
2009-05-07T18:27:54  <TheSheep> I doubt they properly specified their charset, or even knew what it is
2009-05-07T18:28:37  <ThomasWaldmann> do you know what happens when c&p non-utf-8 into browser window that has utf-8 encoding?
2009-05-07T18:28:56  <TheSheep> the browsers shuld recode
2009-05-07T18:28:57  <TheSheep> should
2009-05-07T18:29:03  <ThomasWaldmann> ah, ok
2009-05-07T18:29:04  <TheSheep> or rather, SHOULD
2009-05-07T18:29:08  <TheSheep> ;)
2009-05-07T18:29:52  <TheSheep> ThomasWaldmann: the form has an encoding specified, the browsers should encoded the text to that encoding
2009-05-07T18:30:28  <TheSheep> ThomasWaldmann: if no encoding is specified in the form (which can be easily aoided), the encoding of the page is used iirc
2009-05-07T18:30:32  <ThomasWaldmann> ok, hopefully they manage. that doesn't fix things when someone uploads some foo.txt in latin1.
2009-05-07T18:30:54  <TheSheep> .txt is not text/moin :)
2009-05-07T18:31:10  <ThomasWaldmann> so I feel we should just have content-type including charset in metadata
2009-05-07T18:32:13  <ThomasWaldmann> and if we support that for text/plain, I guess it will be almost automatically supported for everything else text/*
2009-05-07T18:33:03  <TheSheep> I see
2009-05-07T18:33:07  <TheSheep> make sense
2009-05-07T18:33:10  <TheSheep> makes
2009-05-07T18:33:25  <TheSheep> can we at least say the default is utf-8 if not specified?
2009-05-07T18:33:32  <TheSheep> ascii default is dumb
2009-05-07T18:33:46  <ThomasWaldmann> yes :)
2009-05-07T18:41:10  <TheSheep> If defined, a text "charset"
2009-05-07T18:41:17  <TheSheep> parameter MUST be used to specify a charset name defined in accordance to the procedures laid out in [RFC2978].
2009-05-07T18:41:29  <TheSheep> :/
2009-05-07T18:41:35  <TheSheep> so we can't make it optional?
2009-05-07T18:45:54  <ThomasWaldmann> well, if someone forgets it when editing metadata, we can just append it :)
2009-05-07T18:46:16  <TheSheep> right
2009-05-07T18:46:32  <ThomasWaldmann> btw, anyone objecting killing our custom irc/irssi parser? I think the one in pygments is also ok and less maintenance for us.
2009-05-07T18:46:34  <TheSheep> it's good to be designing format for a single application
2009-05-07T18:47:21  <TheSheep> should revision be also obligatory?
2009-05-07T18:47:54  <ThomasWaldmann> the RFCs tell it is optional, we can use it for moin version / moin markup version
2009-05-07T18:50:01  <TheSheep> what should moin do when encountering an old version?
2009-05-07T18:50:13  <TheSheep> error? warning? convert quietly?
2009-05-07T18:50:38  <TheSheep> keep parsers for all versions?
2009-05-07T18:51:02  <ThomasWaldmann> i don't think so :)
2009-05-07T18:51:21  <ThomasWaldmann> but at least having it known is better than unknown (same as for charset)
2009-05-07T18:51:55  <TheSheep> warning: this page uses an older version of MoinMoin markup. Some elements may not display correctly.
2009-05-07T18:52:10  <TheSheep> may display incorrectly
2009-05-07T18:53:09  <ThomasWaldmann> ... RTFM! :)
2009-05-07T18:54:28  <TheSheep> http://www.alvestrand.no/pipermail/ietf-types/2009-May/002190.html  <-- example registration request
2009-05-07T18:54:36  <TheSheep> doesn't look too scary
2009-05-07T18:56:16  <ThomasWaldmann> yeah, vnd might be easer than standard tree
2009-05-07T18:56:54  <TheSheep> it makes sense, it *is* vendor specific
2009-05-07T18:57:41  <ThomasWaldmann> the published specification might be the problem
2009-05-07T18:58:05  <TheSheep> HelpOnEditing ;)
2009-05-07T18:59:11  <TheSheep> I wonder if it could be specified by 'reference implementation'?
2009-05-07T18:59:45  <TheSheep> note how that request didn't specify *exactly* how the file contains a partial download
2009-05-07T19:04:53  <TheSheep> this one looks even simpler: http://www.alvestrand.no/pipermail/ietf-types/2009-April/002183.html
2009-05-07T19:06:38  <ThomasWaldmann> hehe
2009-05-07T19:06:53  <ThomasWaldmann> good that he didn't write "Intended usage: none"
2009-05-07T19:08:20  <TheSheep> maybe I will try to register text/vnd.hatta.wiki and see how it goes...
2009-05-07T19:08:21  <ThomasWaldmann> http://www.iana.org/assignments/media-types/application/ < i don't see it there
2009-05-07T19:08:41  <TheSheep> it's from last month
2009-05-07T19:08:51  <TheSheep> maybe they read it once every two months ;)
2009-05-07T19:10:33  <ThomasWaldmann> Published specification :
2009-05-07T19:10:33  <ThomasWaldmann> The definition of this type is a part of the FLEXsuite(tm) of Enabling
2009-05-07T19:10:33  <ThomasWaldmann> Protocols specification available from Motorola under the appropriate
2009-05-07T19:10:33  <ThomasWaldmann> licensing agreement.
2009-05-07T19:11:19  <ThomasWaldmann> maybe I could tell I have it under my pillow and i would give it out if someone pays enough.
2009-05-07T19:11:37  <TheSheep> or dresses as a pig and squeals
2009-05-07T19:12:14  <TheSheep> we could maybe connect it somehow with the spagetti monster
2009-05-07T19:13:10  <ThomasWaldmann> hehe
2009-05-07T19:14:04  <TheSheep> bbl
2009-05-07T19:15:58  <CIA-18> Thomas Waldmann <tw AT waldmann-edv DOT de> default * 5721:8f4257e41311 2.0-storage/MoinMoin/action/delete.py: removed delete action module, not used any more
2009-05-07T19:30:07  <dennda> ThomasWaldmann, xorAxAx: I agree; The UI should call it "delete". I think we postponed the "do we want a technical delete" question last summer... By the way, what does RC stand for? Release Candidate? (If yes, I don't understand the context)
2009-05-07T19:31:15  <TheSheep> recent changes
2009-05-07T19:35:51  <ThomasWaldmann> dennda: it is currently "[ ] delete item?" on modify ui
2009-05-07T19:41:54  <dennda> is that sufficiently discoverable?
2009-05-07T19:42:00  <dennda> how often are items usually deleted?
2009-05-07T19:42:05  <dennda> is it clear what "item" means?
2009-05-07T19:42:23  <ThomasWaldmann> does santa claus exist? :)
2009-05-07T19:42:48  <ThomasWaldmann> just try the current code :)
2009-05-07T19:42:59  <dennda> you somewhat look like him :D
2009-05-07T19:43:15  <dennda> bb in 20 mins
2009-05-07T19:43:36  * ThomasWaldmann too
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2009-05-07T20:34:36  * ThomasWaldmann kills irc parser in 1.9
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2009-05-07T20:54:38  <CIA-18> Thomas Waldmann <tw AT waldmann-edv DOT de> default * 4722:d87cf99cd525 1.9/MoinMoin/parser/text_irssi.py: replace our text_irssi parser with a wrapper around pygments' irc highlighter
2009-05-07T21:03:41  <CIA-18> Thomas Waldmann <tw AT waldmann-edv DOT de> default * 5722:4a39a4353e9b 2.0-storage/MoinMoin/items/__init__.py: IRC log highlighting item
2009-05-07T21:08:17  <ThomasWaldmann> btw, how about "revert" right - does it make any sense?
2009-05-07T21:13:39  <ThomasWaldmann> "delete" ACL right: kill it, makes no sense.
2009-05-07T21:13:39  <ThomasWaldmann> "revert" ACL right: same?
2009-05-07T21:13:39  <ThomasWaldmann> "create" ACL right: add this?
2009-05-07T21:13:39  <ThomasWaldmann> "move" ACL right: add this? note: includes deletion if implemented by Trash/*
2009-05-07T21:13:49  <ThomasWaldmann> (from TODO)
2009-05-07T21:57:30  <dreimark> re
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2009-05-07T22:31:24  * ThomasWaldmann works on subitem listing
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2009-05-07T23:43:20  <CIA-18> Reimar Bauer <rb.proj AT googlemail DOT com> default * 381:7e2f4d3c1007 extensions/data/plugin/action/CheckTranslation.py: CheckTranslation: edit link to i18n page added
2009-05-07T23:55:04  <dreimark> gn