MoinMoin: MoinMoinChat/Logs/moin-dev/2009-08-28

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2009-08-28T01:07:47  <ThomasWaldmann> http://google-opensource.blogspot.com/2009/08/wrapping-our-fifth-google-summer-of.html
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2009-08-28T09:39:58  <CIA-34> Reimar Bauer <rb.proj AT googlemail DOT com> default * 403:e8fb1a159800 extensions/htdocs/svg-edit/ (19 files in 5 dirs): updated to version of svg-edit Revision r489
2009-08-28T09:40:02  <CIA-34> Reimar Bauer <rb.proj AT googlemail DOT com> default * 404:01cb43413b59 extensions/ (3 files in 2 dirs): SvgEditor: svg-edit adapted
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2009-08-28T10:41:59  <JosefMeier> Moin Moin
2009-08-28T10:49:23  <JosefMeier> which construction areas are the most important ones in moinmoin 2.0-storage? I want to help
2009-08-28T11:24:51  <waldi> user interface. but take a look at the realtime editor stuff for that
2009-08-28T12:04:28  <ThomasWaldmann> JosefMeier: ui, jinja2 theme, fixing broken stuff, new plugin system
2009-08-28T12:05:25  <JosefMeier> what does the realtime editor have common with the gui editor?
2009-08-28T12:06:26  <ThomasWaldmann> both are editors :)
2009-08-28T12:11:29  <JosefMeier> you don't prefer one over the other? the user can choose?
2009-08-28T12:11:56  <CIA-34> Thomas Waldmann <tw AT waldmann-edv DOT de> default * 5046:a9e597a6e012 1.9-xapian-dmilajevs/MoinMoin/script/index/build.py: fix imports in moin index build
2009-08-28T12:19:52  <ThomasWaldmann> dimazest:     2.35 +            logging.warning("Xapian index does not exist. Please crate it. Slow moin search is used.")
2009-08-28T12:28:25  <JosefMeier> ThomasWaldmann: Do you have a more precise description about what is to do on 2.0 ? ui, jinja and so on is not so much information :-)
2009-08-28T12:28:54  <ThomasWaldmann> did you use 2.0 already?
2009-08-28T12:33:15  <ThomasWaldmann> I mean the UI thing is rather obvious. :) The current UI is nice for developing, but you don't want to give it to end users that way.
2009-08-28T12:34:23  <ThomasWaldmann> jinja2 theme means that theme area (header, footer, ...) should be also done with jinja2 theme engine
2009-08-28T12:34:35  <ThomasWaldmann> the content for some actions is already using j2
2009-08-28T12:35:20  <ThomasWaldmann> new plugin system is because of current one is too complex while not being powerful enough
2009-08-28T12:36:17  <ThomasWaldmann> e.g. if you do some sort of small web application as moin plugins, you often have to write a macro and an action, you need some css/html/js...
2009-08-28T12:36:52  <ThomasWaldmann> currently you have to spread that over misc. directories
2009-08-28T12:37:25  <ThomasWaldmann> it would be nicer to have plugins/fooplugin/* having all the stuff needed by fooplugin
2009-08-28T12:48:25  <JosefMeier> Is there one place where the UI is defined? and which actions are using jinja? want to have a start point for learning how it works and where to do something the best
2009-08-28T12:53:43  <ThomasWaldmann> theme/__init__.py
2009-08-28T12:54:08  <ThomasWaldmann> action/show.py uses j2
2009-08-28T12:54:26  <ThomasWaldmann> http://moinmo.in/PluginConceptOverhaul for some plugin ideas
2009-08-28T13:04:24  <ThomasWaldmann> FindPage "last modified since" does not work
2009-08-28T13:07:11  <ThomasWaldmann> attachments are indexed as language:en, maybe no language would be better (or parent language)
2009-08-28T13:28:56  <ThomasWaldmann> dimazest: test_search either hangs or takes extremely long after about 40% of the tests
2009-08-28T13:29:17  <ThomasWaldmann> if i hit ctrl-c, it continues testing
2009-08-28T13:37:26  <CIA-34> Thomas Waldmann <tw AT waldmann-edv DOT de> default * 5047:7a2151bf2797 1.9/MoinMoin/ (search/__init__.py web/serving.py): improve xapian search warnings, fix pep8 issue
2009-08-28T13:39:36  <ThomasWaldmann> dimazest: ^^ I justed pulled moin/1.9-xapian into moin/1.9. if you have pending changesets, please apply them to moin/1.9 and continue there from now on.
2009-08-28T14:35:38  <JosefMeier> how could I do something with the UI if I don't know how people want it to look like?
2009-08-28T14:35:49  <JosefMeier> is there some kind of specification?
2009-08-28T14:35:58  <JosefMeier> or rough idea?
2009-08-28T14:51:42  <ThomasWaldmann> the problem that has to be solved first (for the theming stuff) is basic infrastructure, not so much design
2009-08-28T14:52:19  <ThomasWaldmann> so if you don't have a better idea, you could just rebuild modernized theme looks on jinja2
2009-08-28T14:52:39  * ThomasWaldmann merges moin/1.9 into moin/2.0-storage
2009-08-28T14:53:24  <ThomasWaldmann> JosefMeier: basic infrastructure means: feeding the template engine with the required values, so that templates have all they need
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2009-08-28T15:06:41  <JosefMeier> the templates in "MoinMoin/Templates" will define the look of a template in the future? There will be a lot of directories containing templates with different looks in it?
2009-08-28T15:28:11  <ThomasWaldmann> implementing jinja2 theming will include answering that question :)
2009-08-28T15:28:44  <ThomasWaldmann> but of course there should be some way to have different themes, otherwise it would be a bit pointless
2009-08-28T15:29:04  <dennda> See http://jinja.pocoo.org/2/documentation/
2009-08-28T15:29:26  <dennda> There should be a default from which other templates can derive
2009-08-28T15:36:52  <TheSheep> I think there are two possible ways
2009-08-28T15:38:26  <JosefMeier> the theme distributed in moinmoin2.0-storage is the base template for the future?
2009-08-28T15:38:51  <ThomasWaldmann> JosefMeier: consider everything there rather experimental
2009-08-28T15:39:12  <ThomasWaldmann> the stuff under template/ is mostly doing some content rendering, not so much theme rendering
2009-08-28T15:40:13  <JosefMeier> If I understand it right than implementing a sidebar would look like this:
2009-08-28T15:40:34  <JosefMeier> the base template would provide a sidebar block without content
2009-08-28T15:40:55  <ThomasWaldmann> (and find that cfg switch in theme/__init__.py that enable j2 rendering for the theme)
2009-08-28T15:41:17  <JosefMeier> a new them would subclass the base template and override the sidebar block with my own. isn't it?
2009-08-28T15:42:31  <JosefMeier> a new theme, sorry
2009-08-28T15:43:11  <ThomasWaldmann> yes, somewhat like that
2009-08-28T15:43:39  <ThomasWaldmann> it likely wouldn't be called sidebar, as that already means some specific look.
2009-08-28T15:45:11  <JosefMeier> but if you don't provide a basic look in the base template (like the possibility to have sidebars), than a base template makes not much sense. it could be empty also
2009-08-28T15:46:09  <ThomasWaldmann> well, maybe someone who has experience with using templates for theming should do that :)
2009-08-28T15:47:56  <ThomasWaldmann> maybe one could start with the building blocks (bottom-up, not top down)
2009-08-28T15:56:06  <JosefMeier> what do you mean with "header" and "footer" of a page. Header
2009-08-28T15:56:18  <JosefMeier> Header = <head> javascript code and so on?
2009-08-28T15:56:30  <JosefMeier> Header = Header of the html code?
2009-08-28T15:57:19  <ThomasWaldmann> in theming context, the header is everything currently emitted before the content div
2009-08-28T15:57:28  <ThomasWaldmann> the footer is everything afterwards
2009-08-28T15:58:01  <ThomasWaldmann> (and in the old theme code, the methods are called similarly)
2009-08-28T15:59:12  <JosefMeier> why did you only change the content rendering to jinja2 and not also the header and footer? Is there something special about it?
2009-08-28T15:59:39  <ThomasWaldmann> yeah, it is much work :D
2009-08-28T16:00:08  <ThomasWaldmann> and besides that, I mostly wanted to reimplement some actions
2009-08-28T16:00:48  <ThomasWaldmann> actions used to just have a bunch of html hardcoded in the code, or built some bunch of html using the formatter.
2009-08-28T16:01:20  <JosefMeier> so you want the people also be able to template the html header code? they could add their own javascript stuff then.
2009-08-28T16:01:30  <ThomasWaldmann> i replaced that for the new stuff I did with a template
2009-08-28T16:02:18  <ThomasWaldmann> the template will be responsible for everything in the end
2009-08-28T16:19:19  <JosefMeier> is it necessary to render the jinja template in the item class?
2009-08-28T16:21:26  <ThomasWaldmann> there is already some code in theme/__init__.py
2009-08-28T16:22:16  <ThomasWaldmann> what's completely missing still is feeding the template with all values a header/footer template would require
2009-08-28T16:22:29  <JosefMeier> I would except that the item class returns some content and that the theme is jinja rendered in the templates _init_.py after that
2009-08-28T16:23:01  <JosefMeier> but the rendering still happens in items _init_.py
2009-08-28T16:23:22  <JosefMeier> would make more sense to me
2009-08-28T16:23:33  <JosefMeier> cause the theme is where everything is rendered. not the item class
2009-08-28T16:25:30  <CIA-34> Thomas Waldmann <tw AT waldmann-edv DOT de> default * 6791:ed4573ac6ef3 2.0-storage/ (57 files in 18 dirs): merged moin/1.9 (including new xappy code), needs more fixing
2009-08-28T16:26:27  <JosefMeier> item should only contain code which stores and retrieves content out of items.
2009-08-28T16:26:41  <JosefMeier> the translation of the conten should happen somewhere else
2009-08-28T16:27:01  <JosefMeier> so also for template stuff. it doesn't belong in the item code.
2009-08-28T16:27:05  <ThomasWaldmann> JosefMeier: the rendering item package does is for content div
2009-08-28T16:27:17  <JosefMeier> but why?
2009-08-28T16:27:42  <ThomasWaldmann> because content != theme?
2009-08-28T16:28:31  <JosefMeier> yes. but the content is rendered to a theme in the item class
2009-08-28T16:28:38  <ThomasWaldmann> no
2009-08-28T16:28:44  <JosefMeier> for sure :-)
2009-08-28T16:28:53  <ThomasWaldmann> it is rendered to be usable for content div
2009-08-28T16:29:13  <JosefMeier> yes. but it's using a jinja template for that
2009-08-28T16:29:20  <ThomasWaldmann> so?
2009-08-28T16:29:23  <JosefMeier> so
2009-08-28T16:29:37  <JosefMeier> look into __init__.py in the item directory
2009-08-28T16:29:47  <JosefMeier> it's full of jinja render stuf
2009-08-28T16:29:49  <JosefMeier> stuff
2009-08-28T16:29:50  <ThomasWaldmann> i have written most of that code :)
2009-08-28T16:30:20  <ThomasWaldmann> the problem currently is that there is no j2 theme
2009-08-28T16:30:49  <JosefMeier> but also without that problem: why don't you put the code "template.render(...)" into the theme code?
2009-08-28T16:30:59  <ThomasWaldmann> so currently moin is emitting header with old theme code, then emitting content, then emitting footer with old theme code
2009-08-28T16:31:10  <JosefMeier> I saw that already
2009-08-28T16:32:05  <ThomasWaldmann> it uses different templates depending on the action it does
2009-08-28T16:32:13  <ThomasWaldmann> and it feeds different values to them
2009-08-28T16:33:26  <ThomasWaldmann> i am not saying that it maybe could not work differently, but there is no infrastructure yet for an alternative approach
2009-08-28T16:33:46  <ThomasWaldmann> so, if you have a better idea, just create a patch
2009-08-28T16:34:07  <JosefMeier> so this is the code, where you said, that the basic infrastructure has to be made
2009-08-28T16:38:48  <JosefMeier> There still is another view on this: Each item should know how it will be rendered. Was that your aim :-) ?
2009-08-28T16:39:37  <JosefMeier> than the code would be correct
2009-08-28T16:39:49  <JosefMeier> I mean the architecture
2009-08-28T16:46:46  <ThomasWaldmann> as there are many different item types and different actions on them, the content rendering has to be determined by that
2009-08-28T16:47:30  <ThomasWaldmann> but the theme can be the same usually
2009-08-28T16:47:34  <ThomasWaldmann> bbl
2009-08-28T17:29:12  <ThomasWaldmann> re
2009-08-28T17:38:28  <JosefMeier> Is it possible to use macros with safe and unsafe html items?
2009-08-28T17:38:42  <JosefMeier> in moin 2.0
2009-08-28T17:39:27  <TheSheep> I think that macros can output anything
2009-08-28T17:40:17  <JosefMeier> but if I create a page with unsafe/safe html content, how do I put macros in and how are they translated to html after saving?
2009-08-28T17:40:34  <ThomasWaldmann> html is html, not wiki markup
2009-08-28T17:40:38  <ronny> sup
2009-08-28T17:40:48  <ThomasWaldmann> that means you can't call macros there
2009-08-28T17:40:52  <JosefMeier> ouch
2009-08-28T17:41:10  <ronny> can someone please ping me if this discussion is over?
2009-08-28T17:41:44  <ThomasWaldmann> which discussion exactly? :)
2009-08-28T17:42:17  <TheSheep> ThomasWaldmann: ajax macros! we have to have them! ;)
2009-08-28T17:42:40  <ronny> ThomasWaldmann: the random stuff thats up now
2009-08-28T17:43:15  <JosefMeier> but this wiki without macros ... it makes no sense
2009-08-28T17:43:20  <ronny> i took a look at emacs orgmode, and wonder if some of the ideas around notes/task management could be integrated in moin in a nice way
2009-08-28T17:43:56  * ThomasWaldmann has no idea about "emacs orgmode"
2009-08-28T17:44:46  <ronny> ThomasWaldmann: its a quite awsome thing for task/notes management, if you can spare a 3/4 hour, see the techtalk at http://orgmode.org/GoogleTech.html
2009-08-28T17:45:06  <ThomasWaldmann> JosefMeier: you have to decide. if you want wiki markup, you have to choose it (and you'll get macros, parsers, ...). Or you want to have just a bunch of html, then you get exactly that.
2009-08-28T17:45:08  <ronny> i think some of its ideas can be integrated into wiki markup nicely
2009-08-28T17:45:55  <ThomasWaldmann> if it requires markup change, we need to talk after the dom repo merge
2009-08-28T17:46:07  <ronny> (i want something that works nice from my text editor as well as from a webapp
2009-08-28T17:46:40  <ThomasWaldmann> btw, another thing that needs work is the xapian code i merge some hours ago
2009-08-28T17:47:09  <JosefMeier> ThomasWaldmann: But if this is really true, we will need translators from GUI editor back to Wiki markup and vice versa again!
2009-08-28T17:47:29  <ThomasWaldmann> JosefMeier: yes, that also needs volunteers :)
2009-08-28T17:47:43  <ThomasWaldmann> wiki -> dom -> html exists
2009-08-28T17:47:53  <ThomasWaldmann> the other direction does not exist yet
2009-08-28T17:47:59  <ThomasWaldmann> (in 2.0)
2009-08-28T17:48:11  <JosefMeier> is this new code or is it taken from the converter of 1.8.4
2009-08-28T17:48:44  <ThomasWaldmann> well, i would consider it new code with the opportunity to steal some ideas from 1.9's converter
2009-08-28T17:49:10  <JosefMeier> is the 1.9 converter very different from the 1.8.4 one?
2009-08-28T17:49:10  <ThomasWaldmann> no
2009-08-28T17:49:23  <JosefMeier> but?
2009-08-28T17:49:35  <ThomasWaldmann> it is very much the same
2009-08-28T17:49:43  <ThomasWaldmann> because it is rarely touched
2009-08-28T17:51:21  <ThomasWaldmann> btw, if we had html > domtree, we could have domtree -> different wiki markups (moin, creole, ...)
2009-08-28T17:51:56  <JosefMeier> but we have that in the 1.8.4 and 1.9 -> GUI editor -> wiki markup converter
2009-08-28T17:52:27  <ThomasWaldmann> yes, that is obviously not using the dom tree format
2009-08-28T17:52:58  <JosefMeier> hm. but its using something similar. its working with dom also
2009-08-28T17:53:08  <ThomasWaldmann> yes, as input
2009-08-28T17:53:19  <JosefMeier> uhm
2009-08-28T17:53:20  <ThomasWaldmann> html dom
2009-08-28T17:53:31  <JosefMeier> it uses html dom to create wiki markup ?
2009-08-28T17:53:34  <ThomasWaldmann> but it directly creates wiki markup from that
2009-08-28T17:54:00  <JosefMeier> ok. and whats the difference between html dom and domtree?
2009-08-28T17:57:04  <ThomasWaldmann> http://moinmo.in/BastianBlank/TreeOutputFormatter
2009-08-28T17:57:09  <ThomasWaldmann> http://moinmo.in/BastianBlank/TreeOutputFormatter/Spec
2009-08-28T17:57:17  <ThomasWaldmann> (or just read the code :)
2009-08-28T17:59:37  <ThomasWaldmann> JosefMeier: btw, what's with the svg drawing stuff? or do you just need something for a change? :)
2009-08-28T18:04:42  <ThomasWaldmann> dennda: btw, after you have recovered from vacation, please have a look at the sqla memory/perf issues
2009-08-28T18:05:13  <JosefMeier> ThomasWaldmann: ok. I'll do that today
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2009-08-28T18:21:42  <dennda> I will as soon as I find the time. Got an exam on wed and have not even heard the lectures yet (online lecture)
2009-08-28T18:34:30  <JosefMeier> ThomasWaldmann: What happended to text_html_text_moin_wiki.py in MoinMoin 2.0
2009-08-28T18:37:37  <JosefMeier> ThomasWaldmann: Question 2: The TreeOutputFormatter is in MoinMoin since Version 1.7 ?
2009-08-28T18:43:26  <JosefMeier> ThomasWaldmann: Question 3: Why we don't save the page content as XML instead of Wiki Markup? Processing would be much more simple
2009-08-28T18:54:01  <ThomasWaldmann> JosefMeier: i killed all editor related code and made new, simpler one.
2009-08-28T18:54:44  <ThomasWaldmann> the old code in Page*Editor was not easy to work with and was a twisted thing of storage and UI code.
2009-08-28T18:54:56  <JosefMeier> this means that the converter from html -> wiki markup has to be made completely new?
2009-08-28T18:55:14  <JosefMeier> or can we take text_html_text_moin_wiki.py for that again?
2009-08-28T18:55:39  <ThomasWaldmann> no, it needs to take html as input and output a moin dom tree.
2009-08-28T18:55:52  <ThomasWaldmann> (not wiki markup)
2009-08-28T18:56:12  <JosefMeier> ah. so you don't store wiki markup in the new storage mechanism?
2009-08-28T18:56:13  <ThomasWaldmann> maybe it can be modified, maybe easier to rewrite, one has to see
2009-08-28T18:56:22  <ThomasWaldmann> we do
2009-08-28T18:56:59  <ThomasWaldmann> but using dom tree as intermediate format makes it easier to support different combinations of input/output formats
2009-08-28T18:57:17  <JosefMeier> this moin dom tree is used in which files?
2009-08-28T18:57:26  <ThomasWaldmann> only in memory
2009-08-28T18:57:40  <JosefMeier> also in 1.8.4 used and in 1.9 ?
2009-08-28T18:57:45  <ThomasWaldmann> (we might cache it later, maybe)
2009-08-28T18:58:05  <ThomasWaldmann> no, that is only in 2.0-dom-bblank currently
2009-08-28T18:58:11  <JosefMeier> aaaaahhhh
2009-08-28T18:58:46  <JosefMeier> is it working already and ready for a merge?
2009-08-28T18:59:23  <ThomasWaldmann> I maybe want to merge some easier stuff first, but after that, it is time for dom.
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2009-08-28T19:02:56  <ThomasWaldmann> waldi: merge 2.0-storage-editor-amartani?
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2009-08-28T19:20:38  * ThomasWaldmann moved his company-wiki to 1.9
2009-08-28T19:22:10  <ThomasWaldmann> hmm, is it just wishful thinking or does 1.9 feel faster than 1.8?
2009-08-28T19:23:28  <JosefMeier> feelings can lie sometimes
2009-08-28T19:49:00  <ThomasWaldmann> maybe it is the new cpu also :D
2009-08-28T20:24:12  <JosefMeier> I have a cool idea: can we use the PIL to create thumbnails of images?
2009-08-28T20:24:28  <JosefMeier> -> yes we can :-)
2009-08-28T20:24:52  <JosefMeier> an image preview on the attachment page would be nice. one preview for each revision like in MediaWiki
2009-08-28T20:28:39  <TheSheep> JosefMeier: see the arnica plugin
2009-08-28T20:33:57  <ThomasWaldmann> JosefMeier: we already do :)
2009-08-28T20:34:36  <ThomasWaldmann> and in 2.0, making a thumbnail of some original sized image is as easy as SomeImage&do=get&w=42
2009-08-28T20:36:09  <JosefMeier> hm
2009-08-28T20:36:47  <ThomasWaldmann> you can even rotate/mirror/othertransform it, btw :) t=n
2009-08-28T20:42:09  <JosefMeier> hm
2009-08-28T20:42:18  <JosefMeier> is it using PIL for that?
2009-08-28T20:43:10  <ThomasWaldmann> yes
2009-08-28T20:44:29  <JosefMeier> ok
2009-08-28T20:44:58  <ThomasWaldmann> with client and server side caching support btw :)
2009-08-28T20:45:24  <JosefMeier> AnyWikiDraw: You asked me about a build script for it. Is it ok to use the project files of the IDE it was compiled with instead?
2009-08-28T21:40:15  <ThomasWaldmann> no
2009-08-28T21:40:36  <ThomasWaldmann> must be buildable with freely available tools (e.g. ant)
2009-08-28T21:45:27  <ThomasWaldmann> how is anywikidraw doing that?
2009-08-28T21:47:51  <ThomasWaldmann> {{image|alt text|&w=42}}
2009-08-28T21:48:15  <ThomasWaldmann> ^^ that works for thumbnails btw
2009-08-28T22:05:06  <JosefMeier> I compiled anywikidraw with eclipse
2009-08-28T22:05:25  <JosefMeier> the author compiled it with netbeans IDE. both are open source ides
2009-08-28T22:25:20  <ThomasWaldmann> not sure whether that works for linux package maintainers
2009-08-28T22:28:50  <ThomasWaldmann> JosefMeier: http://wiki.debian.org/Java/Packaging
2009-08-28T23:17:21  <ThomasWaldmann> hmm, i guess the caching code does not quite work like it should
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