1 2010-09-08T00:39:27 *** RogerHaase
2 2010-09-08T08:44:15 *** gwork
3 2010-09-08T09:29:54 <ThomasWaldmann> TheSheep: http://moinmo.in/4ct10n/diff/Moin2CSSStyleGuide?action=diff&date=1282835071000000 could you review that?
4 2010-09-08T09:52:42 <TheSheep> ThomasWaldmann: I did, and I wanted to discuss it with him, but he said he will be back later
5 2010-09-08T09:52:48 <TheSheep> ThomasWaldmann: his connection was droppy
6 2010-09-08T09:53:16 <TheSheep> ThomasWaldmann: discussing on the wiki page is rather slow
7 2010-09-08T09:53:21 * ThomasWaldmann added some licensing comment on the wiki page
8 2010-09-08T09:54:46 <ThomasWaldmann> TheSheep: btw, add your mentor summit travel plan idea to the wiki page
9 2010-09-08T09:55:15 <ThomasWaldmann> waldi: ^^ ""
10 2010-09-08T09:57:26 <dreimark> moin
11 2010-09-08T09:59:10 * dreimark done
12 2010-09-08T10:00:14 * TheSheep adds himself to the waiting list
13 2010-09-08T10:00:56 <TheSheep> ThomasWaldmann: I guess I won't be doing much planning until I hear from Google
14 2010-09-08T10:01:19 <ThomasWaldmann> what do you want to hear from them?
15 2010-09-08T10:01:39 <TheSheep> wether I go or not
16 2010-09-08T10:01:44 <dreimark> me is wondering too, why?
17 2010-09-08T10:02:05 <ThomasWaldmann> moinmoin project is invited, so 2 people will go
18 2010-09-08T10:02:58 <waldi> done
19 2010-09-08T10:03:40 <dreimark> btw. hertz has currently a better rate than AAA
20 2010-09-08T10:06:16 <TheSheep> I just remembered that I have a conference on 10 oct
21 2010-09-08T10:17:10 <ThomasWaldmann> if you have time afterwards, that shouldn't be a problem
22 2010-09-08T10:39:11 <ThomasWaldmann> valeuf: any news about the crash-fix for transclude and docbook?
23 2010-09-08T10:48:07 <CIA-36> Thomas Waldmann <tw AT waldmann-edv DOT de> default * 9901:ea4f8945b6b5 2.0-dev/MoinMoin/apps/frontend/views.py: register view: fix title
24 2010-09-08T12:28:49 <dreimark> Any idea why an own user defined exception is handled this way (<class 'MoinMoin.util.staff_search.Utils.NoData'>, NoData(), <traceback
25 2010-09-08T12:28:52 <dreimark> object at 0x216ac20>)
26 2010-09-08T12:29:18 <dreimark> currently it works only as expected if expect: without the parameter is used
27 2010-09-08T12:29:45 <dreimark> (1.9)
28 2010-09-08T12:36:03 <ThomasWaldmann> problem is unclear
29 2010-09-08T12:39:44 <dreimark> for me too a student which learns python and did some coding for me got this and i recognized that i have no idea
30 2010-09-08T12:42:22 <dreimark> i invite him to the channel, mom.
31 2010-09-08T13:07:04 <CIA-36> Thomas Waldmann <tw AT waldmann-edv DOT de> default * 9902:f2d9049e7eee 2.0-dev/MoinMoin/ (wikiutil.py util/edit_lock.py): move currently unused edit locking code from wikiutil to util.edit_lock
32 2010-09-08T13:48:29 <CIA-36> Thomas Waldmann <tw AT waldmann-edv DOT de> default * 9903:d5b7ac52daf7 2.0-dev/MoinMoin/converter2/html_out.py: (log message trimmed)
33 2010-09-08T13:48:29 <CIA-36> revert 9722:8120763378f5, causes crashes, see below
34 2010-09-08T13:48:29 <CIA-36> Problem: attrib.get(name) expects a name without namespace, the reverted
35 2010-09-08T13:48:29 <CIA-36> changeset gave html('class') as name and caused tracebacks.
36 2010-09-08T13:48:29 <CIA-36> This crashed (at least):
37 2010-09-08T13:48:30 <CIA-36> * rendering of docbook items
38 2010-09-08T13:48:31 <CIA-36> * rendering of python items
39 2010-09-08T13:49:41 <ThomasWaldmann> valeuf: please review this ^^ (it is the crash problem I pointed out recently)
40 2010-09-08T14:04:31 *** lotek
41 2010-09-08T14:12:39 <ThomasWaldmann> http://test.moinmo.in:8080/transclude%20something works again \o/
42 2010-09-08T14:15:14 <dreimark> :)
43 2010-09-08T15:51:02 *** kursor
44 2010-09-08T15:57:52 *** kursor_
45 2010-09-08T16:00:58 *** kursor
46 2010-09-08T16:00:58 *** kursor_
47 2010-09-08T16:31:38 *** gwork
48 2010-09-08T17:39:24 *** lotek
49 2010-09-08T18:35:42 *** RogerHaase
50 2010-09-08T19:23:51 *** kursor
51 2010-09-08T19:56:21 <dreimark> we need to update pypi version of moin
52 2010-09-08T20:54:48 <dreimark> bbl
53 2010-09-08T21:13:21 <RogerHaase> TheSheep, ThomasWaldmann: By separating CSS files into content vs. UI, you mean "content" as everything under <div id="moin-content">? This means you want to keep the equivalent of 1.9 common.css file.
54 2010-09-08T21:15:17 <TheSheep> RogerHaase: everything else is going to be different from theme to theme
55 2010-09-08T21:15:48 <TheSheep> RogerHaase: I wouldn't like to have to start every theme with a 'moin reset' stylesheet undoing everything in moin.css
56 2010-09-08T21:18:41 <TheSheep> RogerHaase: there are some things that would be nice to have as the base: css reset, default styling for headings, underline, highlights, maybe even some styling for widgets
57 2010-09-08T21:18:54 <RogerHaase> Would you prefer the same split as now?
58 2010-09-08T21:19:13 <TheSheep> RogerHaase: the current split is not very clean
59 2010-09-08T21:20:39 <TheSheep> RogerHaase: I think we need to split it so that it minimizs the boilerplate code
60 2010-09-08T21:21:27 <TheSheep> RogerHaase: for example, the print styles could be put almost completely in common, as they are mostly content and few theme authors are interested in customizing them
61 2010-09-08T21:22:31 <RogerHaase> I am not opposed to a ui.css, just find difficulty in defining what it contains. Other than "anything that I want different in my theme should not be in commonl.css". Could we say common.css should not have any classes or IDs unique to the header and footer?
62 2010-09-08T21:22:31 <TheSheep> come to think of it, the projection styles should probably have separate themes :)
63 2010-09-08T21:23:55 <TheSheep> RogerHaase: common.css may have *some* styles for the header/footer, for example, styles that make the list of breadcrumb links into a horizontal menu
64 2010-09-08T21:24:17 <TheSheep> RogerHaase: just no colors or sizes
65 2010-09-08T21:24:48 <TheSheep> so it may have styles for widgets
66 2010-09-08T21:25:15 <TheSheep> if we decide to make the actions menu using css dropdown list, that would also go in there
67 2010-09-08T21:25:34 <TheSheep> but the images for it, if any, would go to the ui
68 2010-09-08T21:25:42 <TheSheep> what do you think?
69 2010-09-08T21:26:46 <TheSheep> so that if you see a moin with just common.css, it appears properly rendered, just very plain
70 2010-09-08T21:28:48 <RogerHaase> Having many files makes it harder to find the rule you want to change. But fewer files is a preference, I have no strong opinion.
71 2010-09-08T21:29:28 <TheSheep> RogerHaase: well, you would have the common.css in moin itself, and then the theme's css
72 2010-09-08T21:30:07 <TheSheep> RogerHaase: you should try using Firebug extension for Firefox some time, it shows you exactly which rules apply to an element and where they are defined.
73 2010-09-08T21:30:39 <RogerHaase> We have two slideshows now. Was either slideshow.css or projection.css going away?
74 2010-09-08T21:31:00 <TheSheep> I think so.
75 2010-09-08T21:31:29 <TheSheep> I think it would make sense to have the slideshow use an entirely separate theme
76 2010-09-08T21:31:58 <TheSheep> but I need to think about that some more -- it just occured to me
77 2010-09-08T21:32:45 <TheSheep> can you tell me what you mean by 'obsolete browsers'?
78 2010-09-08T21:32:54 <RogerHaase> Yes, I use firebug.
79 2010-09-08T21:33:30 <RogerHaase> IE 6, 7. Firefox 1, 2. Opera 7, 8.
80 2010-09-08T21:33:55 <TheSheep> Safari?
81 2010-09-08T21:35:04 <TheSheep> Why is ie 7 obsolete? It's not that old.
82 2010-09-08T21:35:51 <RogerHaase> Safari 3.
83 2010-09-08T21:36:14 <TheSheep> ie7 is the default browser in Vista
84 2010-09-08T21:37:58 <RogerHaase> IE 7 has given me more problems than IE6 and has a slightly lower market share last time I checked. IE7 is starting browser in Vista - if you do MS updates it will upgrade you to IE8 (almost without your knowing it).
85 2010-09-08T21:39:31 <TheSheep> we can't drop browser support just before they are giving problems -- I've been having problems with Opera that are even more subtle and hard to track
86 2010-09-08T21:41:02 <RogerHaase> True. Anybody running IE7 has a free upgrade to IE8. IE6 users cannot upgrade without changing OS.
87 2010-09-08T21:41:27 <TheSheep> all of them have a free upgrade to firefox anyways
88 2010-09-08T21:41:40 <RogerHaase> Even better :)
89 2010-09-08T21:42:02 <waldi> TheSheep: icmp echo request?
90 2010-09-08T21:42:19 <TheSheep> waldi: icmp not reachable
91 2010-09-08T21:43:09 <TheSheep> RogerHaase: next thing, you suggest to implement the actions menu using css
92 2010-09-08T21:43:33 <RogerHaase> I am trying to remember if IE7 supports >, do you know?
93 2010-09-08T21:44:07 <TheSheep> RogerHaase: http://www.quirksmode.org/css/contents.html
94 2010-09-08T21:44:20 <TheSheep> RogerHaase: looks like it does
95 2010-09-08T21:45:14 <RogerHaase> Yes, thanks.
96 2010-09-08T21:49:04 <RogerHaase> Regarding more actions, I remember there was a concern about accessibility. But more than that, it seems ugly.
97 2010-09-08T21:50:41 <TheSheep> well, having more than 5 actions in there is already a problem imho
98 2010-09-08T21:50:59 <TheSheep> making it a dropdown was an attempt to hide the complexity
99 2010-09-08T21:51:46 <TheSheep> I would gladly move some of the actions to the 'info' page
100 2010-09-08T21:52:23 <TheSheep> then maybe we wouldn't need a dropdown at all
101 2010-09-08T21:54:59 <RogerHaase> Yes, I think Mandarin has a nice way of handling it. The CSS drop down/up was trying to make it less of a wart. There is an even slicker drop down using jQuery but I am not sure about drop up..
102 2010-09-08T21:55:49 <TheSheep> RogerHaase: yeah, I tried to improve it in Mandarin, but then it's too long to get some of the actions
103 2010-09-08T21:56:12 <ThomasWaldmann> TheSheep: dreimark: waldi: > #moin-soc
104 2010-09-08T21:56:15 <TheSheep> RogerHaase: plus, some actions are really general, while others apply to a page
105 2010-09-08T22:12:14 <RogerHaase> Another approach to more actions could be to keep everything on the same li level, but hidden. We could use "more actions" as a trigger to unhide/hide. The edit bar already wraps if there is not enough room. Would have to get rid of the ---------.
106 2010-09-08T22:23:45 <TheSheep> RogerHaase: well, you are assuming a browser with css and js support
107 2010-09-08T22:24:29 <TheSheep> I would prefer to keep moin functional (maybe not pretty) on all browsers
108 2010-09-08T22:26:24 <RogerHaase> Yes a reasonable goal. We could start out (not pretty) with all actions visible and use javascript to hide them.
109 2010-09-08T22:26:48 <RogerHaase> on page load.
110 2010-09-08T22:27:14 <TheSheep> if the 'more' link requires a click anyways, you could do it the mandarin way -- load a separate page
111 2010-09-08T22:27:22 <TheSheep> google does that on the front page
112 2010-09-08T22:28:10 <TheSheep> but I would still want to categorize the actions: toolbar, menu, info page and recent changes page (for wiki-wide actions)
113 2010-09-08T22:33:31 <RogerHaase> I am not understanding your categorizations.
114 2010-09-08T22:34:31 <TheSheep> some actions, like 'modify', are important enough to deserve a place in the toolbar directly
115 2010-09-08T22:34:58 <TheSheep> other actions apply to the content of the page, so should be available from the menu
116 2010-09-08T22:35:23 <TheSheep> but there are actions that apply to the page as a whole or the wiki as a whole
117 2010-09-08T22:35:35 <TheSheep> and those should go to the info page/recent changes page
118 2010-09-08T22:35:59 <TheSheep> (or some other system page)
119 2010-09-08T22:37:47 <RogerHaase> Adding to a separate page is fine, but adding to info page or recent changes page would be an unexpected place to find more actions.
120 2010-09-08T22:38:04 <TheSheep> for example, there is a whole family of actions that only present an alternate form of the page: raw text, print view, docbook, pdf
121 2010-09-08T22:39:24 <TheSheep> RogerHaase: well, I think it makes sense to present the actions that manipulate certain data next to that data
122 2010-09-08T22:40:49 <TheSheep> RogerHaase: perhaps the info page should have even more tabs and show some of the actions in there
123 2010-09-08T22:40:59 <TheSheep> RogerHaase: like 'like pages' and 'local site map'
124 2010-09-08T22:43:03 <TheSheep> RogerHaase: moin2 already has some more 'info' pages, like 'meta'
125 2010-09-08T22:44:06 <TheSheep> and 'what links here'
126 2010-09-08T22:47:28 <RogerHaase> OK, info page could make sense at least for some actions. But are you thinking of saying raw text for a specific version then?
127 2010-09-08T22:49:19 <TheSheep> RogerHaase: trac for example has this separate 'download this page in other formats' menu
128 2010-09-08T22:49:30 <TheSheep> RogerHaase: at the bottom of the page
129 2010-09-08T22:50:04 <TheSheep> RogerHaase: I think it kinda makes sense to group them this way
130 2010-09-08T22:50:14 <RogerHaase> With regard to info page having more tabs, wouldn't that be a big change to have page content push extra content into heading?
131 2010-09-08T22:50:41 <TheSheep> RogerHaase: I didn't understand that last sentence
132 2010-09-08T22:58:24 <RogerHaase> I take it back, at least partly. I was thinking the header never changes, but it dissapears for raw text and print views. Are there actions that presently add content to the header - like extra tabs?
133 2010-09-08T23:03:46 <TheSheep> well, the info page has tab-like links at the top
134 2010-09-08T23:03:46 <TheSheep> and the prefrences page has an index page now -- could be done with tabs too
135 2010-09-08T23:03:47 <TheSheep> other actions just remove the editbar sometimes
136 2010-09-08T23:03:47 <TheSheep> like the missing page
137 2010-09-08T23:03:48 <TheSheep> (ok, it's not technically an action, but close)
138 2010-09-08T23:03:49 <TheSheep> also, I think the tab-like menu for the pages should go
139 2010-09-08T23:03:49 <TheSheep> it doesn't scale
140 2010-09-08T23:03:49 <TheSheep> and tabs should be used for 'multiple views of the same object' anyways
141 2010-09-08T23:04:02 <RogerHaase> But those examples are under the <div id="moin-content> rather than <div id="moin-header">, aren't they.
142 2010-09-08T23:04:18 <RogerHaase> ?
143 2010-09-08T23:11:30 <RogerHaase> Restated: Those examples are adding links/tabs under the <div id="moin-content> section rather than <div id="moin-header"> section. I am OK with that.
144 2010-09-08T23:11:50 <TheSheep> well, it doesn't *have* to be like that
145 2010-09-08T23:12:14 <TheSheep> I mean, this is a redesign, we can make decisions (!)
146 2010-09-08T23:12:40 <TheSheep> we don't have to only look at a single element at a time
147 2010-09-08T23:12:42 <ThomasWaldmann> brb
148 2010-09-08T23:15:14 *** lestat_
149 2010-09-08T23:15:16 <RogerHaase> We used to call this "scope creep". I am trying to end up with one theme called modernized. There can be others, and I am hoping to write one of 'em.
150 2010-09-08T23:16:10 *** lestat_
151 2010-09-08T23:16:22 <TheSheep> RogerHaase: I want to get top-down, not bottom-up
152 2010-09-08T23:16:47 <TheSheep> RogerHaase: the new default theme doesn't need to be similar to old one
153 2010-09-08T23:17:48 <TheSheep> RogerHaase: the thing is, not everything will be easy to override in other themes
154 2010-09-08T23:17:54 <TheSheep> RogerHaase: like the info page "tabs"
155 2010-09-08T23:18:23 <TheSheep> (although maybe with the new template system it won't be as bad)
156 2010-09-08T23:20:21 <RogerHaase> I am thinking the ul's are pretty easy to deal with. The more actions drop down selector box was hard to deal with in fixedleft.
157 2010-09-08T23:29:10 <TheSheep> RogerHaase: one reason for using a dropdown and a form is that the actions with side effects should never by triggered by a HTTP GET
158 2010-09-08T23:29:44 <TheSheep> RogerHaase: in moin2 the actions that have side effects should display a form with confirmation
159 2010-09-08T23:30:01 <TheSheep> (so that the action itself is always triggered by a POST)
160 2010-09-08T23:35:46 <RogerHaase> OK, I did not remember that is was inside a form. But isn't a ul permitted inside a form?
161 2010-09-08T23:36:30 <TheSheep> it is, but you would use buttons?
162 2010-09-08T23:37:13 <TheSheep> currently moin uses a dropdown to select the action and a button to submit it
163 2010-09-08T23:37:32 <TheSheep> (that button is replaced with js if you have it)
164 2010-09-08T23:42:32 <RogerHaase> The intent was to get rid of the drop down selection box and replace it with something that looked nicer.
165 2010-09-08T23:45:01 <TheSheep> but this way you still have the poor usability and accessibility
166 2010-09-08T23:45:45 <ThomasWaldmann> re
167 2010-09-08T23:48:12 <RogerHaase> Under 1.9 the form is method=get and looks like it requires javascript. No?
168 2010-09-08T23:48:51 <TheSheep> RogerHaase: disable js and try
169 2010-09-08T23:49:23 <TheSheep> RogerHaase: I think it's get because all actions with side effects have been already converted to display the confirmation form
170 2010-09-08T23:49:24 <ThomasWaldmann> btw, if that menu is changed, it still should work with any browser
171 2010-09-08T23:51:03 <TheSheep> maybe we should start with requirements, so that we know what we can use
172 2010-09-08T23:51:27 <TheSheep> I'm working on the assumption that it should look good on 'supported' browsers and be usable on all browsers
173 2010-09-08T23:51:46 <TheSheep> even without js
174 2010-09-08T23:52:21 <TheSheep> that rules out non-js css dropdown menu, because msie doesn't support :hover on anything other than links
175 2010-09-08T23:53:15 <TheSheep> and js-based menu should have the menu expanded with css disabled
176 2010-09-08T23:53:21 <TheSheep> with js disabled, sorry
177 2010-09-08T23:57:34 <RogerHaase> Under 2.0 drop down form is method=get, and I can't get to do anything with js disabled. (But it also seems a little flaky with js enabled).
178 2010-09-08T23:58:24 <TheSheep> on 1.9 it has a button when js is diabled
179 2010-09-08T23:58:27 <TheSheep> disabled*
180 2010-09-08T23:59:44 <TheSheep> anyways, I think it's possible to completely remove this menu and put the actions in various other places, more logical
