1 2011-05-02T00:01:56 <RogerHaase> So is the working [[mailto://foo@bar]] a bug? It works in 1.9 also. Do any of the other url schemas have unusual formats (unique characters) like mailto?
2 2011-05-02T00:08:27 <ThomasWaldmann> i guess we can't keep users from entering invalid urls, so i don't think it is an issue if it accepts wrong mailto urls
3 2011-05-02T00:08:58 <ThomasWaldmann> (and if it is, we can fix that later)
4 2011-05-02T00:09:29 <dreimark> can we use the sphinx url check code?
5 2011-05-02T00:09:48 <ThomasWaldmann> why should we?
6 2011-05-02T00:10:45 * ThomasWaldmann doesn't know that code or what it is good for exactly
7 2011-05-02T00:11:32 <dreimark> to find non existing urls
8 2011-05-02T00:13:09 <dreimark> ThomasWaldmann: can we access the browsers content type tool?
9 2011-05-02T00:14:22 <dreimark> http://kb.mozillazine.org/Actions_for_attachment_file_types
10 2011-05-02T00:14:30 <dreimark> see Alternative approach
11 2011-05-02T00:15:25 <ThomasWaldmann> checking if url targets exist has nothing to do with parsing
12 2011-05-02T00:16:02 <dreimark> "url check code" was related to RogerHaase question of wrong links
13 2011-05-02T00:16:12 <dreimark> 00:08 < ThomasWaldmann> i guess we can't keep users from entering invalid urls,
14 2011-05-02T00:17:36 <dreimark> thunderbird and ff have the same content type problem and also only a workaround solution
15 2011-05-02T00:17:47 <ThomasWaldmann> invalid means wrong url string format, not that target does not exist
16 2011-05-02T00:17:57 <dreimark> ah, ok
17 2011-05-02T00:19:30 <ThomasWaldmann> it's because the extensions system is incomplete and the mimetype system or its implementation is at least slightly flawed (for stuff like .tar.gz).
18 2011-05-02T00:20:24 <dreimark> the wrong mimetype scenario is the same for us
19 2011-05-02T00:20:50 <ThomasWaldmann> not quite
20 2011-05-02T00:20:54 <dreimark> with the difference that we don't want a browser to correct the problems
21 2011-05-02T00:21:26 <ThomasWaldmann> we control the mimetype, we have it in the metadata
22 2011-05-02T00:21:38 <ThomasWaldmann> the problem for us is to get the right mimetype into the metadata
23 2011-05-02T00:21:41 <dreimark> if it is wrong we send the wrong one
24 2011-05-02T00:21:57 <dreimark> **knows
25 2011-05-02T00:25:05 <dreimark> if we create previews of items a user could recognize by a missing preview that something is wrong
26 2011-05-02T00:25:43 <dreimark> by that or something similiar we have a builtin check
27 2011-05-02T00:26:38 <dreimark> then we have the next question to solve. how the user can know and add the best matching mimetype
28 2011-05-02T00:27:48 <ThomasWaldmann> hmm, yes and no
29 2011-05-02T00:28:21 <dreimark> i think we need a builtin check, similiar to orphaned which lists at least problematic items
30 2011-05-02T00:28:34 <ThomasWaldmann> you can't preview most mimetypes. but the preview could also tell what the wiki thinks this is (type and encoding).
31 2011-05-02T00:29:12 <TheSheep> 'wanted mimetypes'?
32 2011-05-02T00:29:52 <TheSheep> with a link to 'how to write a mime type handler and contribute it' on the wiki ;)
33 2011-05-02T00:30:37 <dreimark> i am currently not sure if i want anything else than utf-8 for text as data
34 2011-05-02T00:31:08 <dreimark> because of the problems i had with non utf-8 stuff in the past i try to avoid it everywhere
35 2011-05-02T00:31:11 <ThomasWaldmann> it doesn't matter what you want. :) sometimes you just get stuff as it is.
36 2011-05-02T00:31:21 <dreimark> i kill that stuff
37 2011-05-02T00:31:25 <dreimark> or convert it
38 2011-05-02T00:31:36 <dreimark> it makes more trouble to keep it as is
39 2011-05-02T00:33:11 <dreimark> TheSheep: this was the FR part and only to restrict it to current items of the create list
40 2011-05-02T00:34:12 <ThomasWaldmann> e.g. if you look at the fileserver backend: this exposes a (read-only) view of a (part of a) filesystem
41 2011-05-02T00:34:44 <RogerHaase> gtg
42 2011-05-02T00:34:46 <ThomasWaldmann> the files (items) there are "as is", no matter whether you like their encoding, filenames, etc. or not
43 2011-05-02T00:34:50 *** RogerHaase
44 2011-05-02T00:34:59 <dreimark> i know, it can have such files there also with filenames in another encoding
45 2011-05-02T00:35:08 <dreimark> but currently i can't backup those files
46 2011-05-02T00:35:45 <dreimark> it gives in lots of applications errors and i have lots of requests because of that
47 2011-05-02T00:35:58 <ThomasWaldmann> that was one of the reasons to revert the " " == "_" thing of moin 1.5 btw.
48 2011-05-02T00:36:29 <dreimark> we need to be able to deliver it in utf-8
49 2011-05-02T00:36:40 <dreimark> so it makes no sense to store something we can't send
50 2011-05-02T00:36:57 <dreimark> and if we have to encode it for sending we also can save it encoded
51 2011-05-02T00:37:14 <ThomasWaldmann> no we don't :)
52 2011-05-02T00:37:22 <dreimark> why?
53 2011-05-02T00:37:30 <ThomasWaldmann> (e.g. for a download it does not matter)
54 2011-05-02T00:37:44 <ThomasWaldmann> just if we want to show it within the theme
55 2011-05-02T00:37:52 <dreimark> yes, but then it can't be editet or transcluded
56 2011-05-02T00:38:03 <dreimark> in that case it does not matter
57 2011-05-02T00:38:07 <ThomasWaldmann> but as long as we know encoding, storage encoding doesn't need to be utf8
58 2011-05-02T00:38:51 <ThomasWaldmann> editing could be a problem, yes, if it can't be encoded back to original encoding
59 2011-05-02T00:39:12 <dreimark> in worst case you have mixed encoding
60 2011-05-02T00:39:16 <ThomasWaldmann> no
61 2011-05-02T00:39:45 <dreimark> ok, you have non readable and readable content
62 2011-05-02T00:39:59 <dreimark> and if you change encoding it toggles
63 2011-05-02T00:40:05 <ThomasWaldmann> storage: iso-8859-1 ---- recode ---> web form: utf8 ---> recode ---> storage: iso-8859-1
64 2011-05-02T00:40:28 <dreimark> did not work in all cases
65 2011-05-02T00:40:30 <ThomasWaldmann> the last step can fail, though
66 2011-05-02T00:40:46 <ThomasWaldmann> we can reject it then or offer saving as utf8
67 2011-05-02T00:41:06 <ThomasWaldmann> but it'll never mix up easily
68 2011-05-02T00:41:18 <dreimark> the old cms had that
69 2011-05-02T00:42:26 <dreimark> for that case we have an additional problem, the browser tries to fix too
70 2011-05-02T00:44:04 <dreimark> hmm, we have some classification done. an item can be
71 2011-05-02T00:44:08 <dreimark> editable
72 2011-05-02T00:44:13 <dreimark> transcludable
73 2011-05-02T00:44:25 <dreimark> downloadable
74 2011-05-02T00:44:46 <ThomasWaldmann> the browser tries to fix what?
75 2011-05-02T00:45:05 <dreimark> do we have somewhere this classification based on the mimetype?
76 2011-05-02T00:45:18 <dreimark> the browser tries to fix the encoding
77 2011-05-02T00:45:28 <ThomasWaldmann> means?
78 2011-05-02T00:45:53 <dreimark> the user may be don't recognize that the encoding is wrong
79 2011-05-02T00:46:31 <dreimark> usually i recognize that problem when i go to an other site and this looks then strange
80 2011-05-02T00:46:43 <dreimark> only a browser restart helps then
81 2011-05-02T00:47:12 <ThomasWaldmann> i don't understand.
82 2011-05-02T00:47:26 <dreimark> if you add an item with wrong encoding
83 2011-05-02T00:47:35 <dreimark> the browser can correct that problem
84 2011-05-02T00:47:46 <dreimark> and you don't recognize the failure
85 2011-05-02T00:48:21 <ThomasWaldmann> i am quite sure this can't happen
86 2011-05-02T00:48:47 <dreimark> i look tom. for an example. hopefully that is on a public site
87 2011-05-02T00:49:14 <ThomasWaldmann> (we always need to render using utf-8)
88 2011-05-02T00:49:31 <ThomasWaldmann> at least within the theme views
89 2011-05-02T00:49:35 <dreimark> yes
90 2011-05-02T00:49:49 <dreimark> we do - i missed that point
91 2011-05-02T00:50:03 <ThomasWaldmann> so there is no choice for the browser to do something wrong
92 2011-05-02T00:50:23 <dreimark> yes
93 2011-05-02T00:50:50 <dreimark> do we check for is_editable, is_downloadble, is_transcludable or similiar ?
94 2011-05-02T00:51:10 <dreimark> or is that a right -write, makes it not editable
95 2011-05-02T00:51:19 <ThomasWaldmann> the item class hierarchy determines what's possible and what's handled how
96 2011-05-02T00:51:47 <ThomasWaldmann> and it will obey acls
97 2011-05-02T00:52:24 * dreimark have to look into the code later.
98 2011-05-02T00:52:53 <dreimark> it is a difference to say it is downloadable but not editable by the wiki editor
99 2011-05-02T00:53:01 <dreimark> because you can't say -write
100 2011-05-02T00:53:16 <dreimark> which would mean you also can't exchange it by a new file
101 2011-05-02T00:54:44 <ThomasWaldmann> write rights give right to modify, no matter whether it is by upload or online editing
102 2011-05-02T00:55:16 <ThomasWaldmann> read rights give right to view or download
103 2011-05-02T00:55:29 <dreimark> i am thinking about that one could have a text item he don't want to be edited by wiki editor
104 2011-05-02T00:55:40 <dreimark> but downloadable
105 2011-05-02T00:55:51 <dreimark> and exchangable by another upload
106 2011-05-02T00:56:04 <ThomasWaldmann> then it will be editable online also
107 2011-05-02T00:56:18 <dreimark> then the encoding matters
108 2011-05-02T00:56:34 <ThomasWaldmann> knowing it matters
109 2011-05-02T00:58:05 <dreimark> yes as usual.
110 2011-05-02T00:58:56 <dreimark> we are just not consistant. we decide not to transclude items because the browser can't do it
111 2011-05-02T00:59:13 <dreimark> there we give only download link
112 2011-05-02T00:59:37 <dreimark> but we can't do the same for text items or others the browser can show
113 2011-05-02T01:00:17 <ThomasWaldmann> ?
114 2011-05-02T01:02:41 <dreimark> e.g. if one adds his public ssh key, it is a text item
115 2011-05-02T01:03:41 <dreimark> it should not be editable by the text editor
116 2011-05-02T01:03:55 <dreimark> for this item one has to add -write
117 2011-05-02T01:04:03 <ThomasWaldmann> so?
118 2011-05-02T01:04:11 <dreimark> while if it would be a mimetype which did not be known
119 2011-05-02T01:04:22 <dreimark> it is only a download link avail.
120 2011-05-02T01:04:33 <dreimark> and -write is not given
121 2011-05-02T01:05:01 <ThomasWaldmann> it is a different whether one must not editing something or whether one technically can not edit something
122 2011-05-02T01:05:08 <ThomasWaldmann> difference*
123 2011-05-02T01:06:04 <dreimark> yes - but currently the browser does this decision
124 2011-05-02T01:06:21 <ThomasWaldmann> no, moin's code does
125 2011-05-02T01:06:31 <ThomasWaldmann> for the "can"
126 2011-05-02T01:06:55 <ThomasWaldmann> or acls for the "must not"
127 2011-05-02T01:06:57 <dreimark> hmm, i mean it different we look what the browser can and do it like it can be done
128 2011-05-02T01:08:01 <ThomasWaldmann> so?
129 2011-05-02T01:08:42 <dreimark> i think it should be possibible to decide what can be downloaded or transcluded or editable
130 2011-05-02T01:09:18 <ThomasWaldmann> you can (technically) download anything. for permissions, there are acls.
131 2011-05-02T01:09:37 <dreimark> but how do you avoid transclusion?
132 2011-05-02T01:10:05 <ThomasWaldmann> transclusion: it is pointless to transclude something that doesn't technically work. But this will be either avoided by the code or you'll notice it.
133 2011-05-02T01:10:20 <ThomasWaldmann> and for the permissions, it'll check read acl.
134 2011-05-02T01:11:04 <ThomasWaldmann> for editing, the code will decide what is possible to edit (text/* and maybe few other stuff like drawings).
135 2011-05-02T01:11:20 <ThomasWaldmann> and for permissions, there are write acls.
136 2011-05-02T01:11:45 <ThomasWaldmann> so, where exactly is the problem?
137 2011-05-02T01:12:06 <dreimark> yes and if i need an item which is not transcludable because i don't want that i can create a new mimetype item
138 2011-05-02T01:12:13 <dreimark> and it is solved for me
139 2011-05-02T01:12:47 <ThomasWaldmann> if you don't want someone to see your stuff you need -read.
140 2011-05-02T01:13:10 <ThomasWaldmann> if you allow seeing it, transclusion shouldn't be a problem either.
141 2011-05-02T01:13:51 <ThomasWaldmann> and there is also include, btw.
142 2011-05-02T01:14:18 <dreimark> the problem is the size of some items
143 2011-05-02T01:14:49 <ThomasWaldmann> if you do stupid stuff, you'll own the pieces :)
144 2011-05-02T01:15:46 <dreimark> i'll own it also if i don't avoid it or it is to simple for some of my colleagues to do that
145 2011-05-02T01:16:59 <dreimark> but we can stop here, that are new aspects and they are far away from the problem we try to solve
146 2011-05-02T01:17:50 *** m4k3r
147 2011-05-02T01:17:55 <dreimark> hi m4k3r
148 2011-05-02T01:21:36 <dreimark> summarize: encoding makes no problem when correct or when we can only download the item (no editing with browser, no transclude, no include)
149 2011-05-02T01:23:34 <dreimark> * guessing is complicated
150 2011-05-02T01:24:05 <dreimark> * only with the cycling to utf-8 and back it may be possible to detect a problem
151 2011-05-02T01:25:47 <dreimark> in that case the meta entry must be corrected by the user
152 2011-05-02T01:28:25 <dreimark> can we request here a valid encoding and avoid storing of a wrong encoded item?
153 2011-05-02T01:28:35 <dreimark> ThomasWaldmann: ^
154 2011-05-02T01:29:16 <ThomasWaldmann> you'll see on encode whether it can be encoded
155 2011-05-02T01:29:51 <ThomasWaldmann> if it can't, you obviously need another encoding (possibly utf-8)
156 2011-05-02T01:30:14 <dreimark> we see this only after it is on the server, right?
157 2011-05-02T01:30:41 <ThomasWaldmann> you see it when processing http post data
158 2011-05-02T01:31:10 <ThomasWaldmann> and that will be part of the validation we need for the editor
159 2011-05-02T01:31:19 <dreimark> if we upload by jquery it would be best a js function did a simple test
160 2011-05-02T01:31:52 <ThomasWaldmann> that's optional
161 2011-05-02T01:32:05 <ThomasWaldmann> you need to validate on the server in any case
162 2011-05-02T01:32:24 <dreimark> definitlyb
163 2011-05-02T01:32:50 *** m4k3r
164 2011-05-02T01:33:52 <dreimark> somehow it looks like uploading into a sandbox, verifying and adding to storage
165 2011-05-02T01:37:04 <ThomasWaldmann> yup, something like that is an option
166 2011-05-02T01:37:55 <ThomasWaldmann> one has to see if that is really required, though, and whether it makes stuff simpler
167 2011-05-02T01:39:59 <dreimark> it introduces also a different workflow
168 2011-05-02T01:40:04 <dreimark> +can
169 2011-05-02T01:40:21 <dreimark> it is similiar to preview and publish
170 2011-05-02T01:41:28 <dreimark> while in preview / verifying all needed attributes have to been added
171 2011-05-02T01:41:38 <dreimark> it can be that it is a wanted workflow anyway
172 2011-05-02T02:48:38 *** MattMaker
173 2011-05-02T05:32:55 *** MattMaker
174 2011-05-02T05:39:16 *** MattMaker
175 2011-05-02T08:57:34 *** MattMaker
176 2011-05-02T09:14:38 <ThomasWaldmann> moin
177 2011-05-02T09:55:00 *** andialbrecht
178 2011-05-02T10:31:47 *** MattMaker
179 2011-05-02T10:35:50 *** MattMaker
180 2011-05-02T11:18:08 <dreimark> moin
181 2011-05-02T14:15:01 *** greg_f
182 2011-05-02T14:20:00 *** hardy_89
183 2011-05-02T15:09:51 *** hardy_89
184 2011-05-02T15:10:58 *** m4k3r
185 2011-05-02T15:37:29 *** m4k3r_
186 2011-05-02T15:38:17 *** m4k3r
187 2011-05-02T16:50:55 *** asmodai
188 2011-05-02T16:51:22 <asmodai> ThomasWaldmann: done
189 2011-05-02T16:52:19 <asmodai> should do the install when I get home in about an hour
190 2011-05-02T16:52:39 <ThomasWaldmann> great :)
191 2011-05-02T16:52:50 <ThomasWaldmann> install is even documented
192 2011-05-02T16:53:16 <ThomasWaldmann> http://static.moinmo.in/m2/html/
193 2011-05-02T16:53:19 <asmodai> yeah, saw it on the moin2 page
194 2011-05-02T16:53:49 <ThomasWaldmann> and make sure you use moin/2.0 (not -dev, that is outdated and much bigger)
195 2011-05-02T16:54:41 <ThomasWaldmann> btw, we have one issue with babel and pip
196 2011-05-02T16:54:54 <ThomasWaldmann> (maybe rather with pip)
197 2011-05-02T16:55:00 <asmodai> what about it?
198 2011-05-02T16:55:32 <ThomasWaldmann> somehow it doesn't work to have it installed before the other stuff (usually done by install-requires in setup.py)
199 2011-05-02T16:55:52 <ThomasWaldmann> so currently that quickinstall script just has a separate install command just for babel
200 2011-05-02T16:56:07 <asmodai> odd, will check that when I get home
201 2011-05-02T16:56:15 <asmodai> bbiab
202 2011-05-02T16:56:20 <ThomasWaldmann> thanks :)
203 2011-05-02T17:20:49 *** m4k3r
204 2011-05-02T17:23:08 *** m4k3r_
205 2011-05-02T18:19:28 *** greg_f
206 2011-05-02T19:39:50 *** m4k3r
207 2011-05-02T19:41:25 *** m4k3r
208 2011-05-02T20:23:04 *** ronny
209 2011-05-02T20:24:39 *** ronny
210 2011-05-02T20:58:23 <CIA-25> Thomas Waldmann <tw AT waldmann-edv DOT de> default * 209:76a6dd2fae57 2.0/MoinMoin/storage/backends/fs2.py: fs2: use file context manager
211 2011-05-02T21:18:50 *** pkumar
212 2011-05-02T21:23:54 <CIA-25> Thomas Waldmann <tw AT waldmann-edv DOT de> default * 210:316c839a6f62 2.0/MoinMoin/util/crypto.py: crypto: better docstring, make md5crypt optional, method list as constant
213 2011-05-02T21:25:16 <ThomasWaldmann> hi pkumar
214 2011-05-02T21:25:33 <pkumar> hey
215 2011-05-02T21:26:08 <ThomasWaldmann> do you have time for creating/updating some wiki pages?
216 2011-05-02T21:27:30 <pkumar> yeah, I'll do it by today.
217 2011-05-02T21:27:34 <ThomasWaldmann> http://moinmo.in/GoogleSoc2011 if so, start there, create an account (same as pagename), create that nonexisting wiki homepage, create a project page and link it from that table
218 2011-05-02T21:28:01 <ThomasWaldmann> and subscribe to your wiki home page
219 2011-05-02T21:28:34 <ThomasWaldmann> xorAxAx: ^^
220 2011-05-02T21:29:02 <pkumar> sure.
221 2011-05-02T21:29:11 <xorAxAx> ThomasWaldmann: yeah, thats what you forgot to put onto that page
222 2011-05-02T21:29:16 <xorAxAx> i added those instructions :D
223 2011-05-02T21:30:25 <ThomasWaldmann> maybe i found it too obvious :)
224 2011-05-02T21:50:25 <CIA-25> Thomas Waldmann <tw AT waldmann-edv DOT de> default * 211:53a21be164e0 2.0/docs/devel/api/MoinMoin.util.rst: api docs: updated autogenerated stuff
225 2011-05-02T22:22:38 <asmodai> now
226 2011-05-02T22:22:42 <asmodai> lets set this up
227 2011-05-02T22:27:21 <ThomasWaldmann> :)
228 2011-05-02T22:28:49 <asmodai> got to love not having enough hours in the day
229 2011-05-02T22:42:38 <ThomasWaldmann> asmodai: if you find something in the docs, just tell, I am just editing them
230 2011-05-02T22:42:57 <asmodai> ok
231 2011-05-02T22:43:20 <asmodai> reading downloading and installing now.
232 2011-05-02T22:47:03 <pkumar> I just created a wiki page. Hope I have done it correct.
233 2011-05-02T22:47:47 <pkumar> http://moinmo.in/PrashantKumar
234 2011-05-02T22:56:09 <ThomasWaldmann> maybe you want to have a homepage telling something about "Prashant Kumar" and a separate project page telling something about your project?
235 2011-05-02T22:58:02 <pkumar> keeping project and my personal info separate should be fine I guess.
236 2011-05-02T23:03:17 <ThomasWaldmann> btw, if you go to your user profile and edit your name and remove the blank, -- <unknown> <<DateTime(2011-05-02T22:00:02Z)>> will automatically link back to your homepage
237 2011-05-02T23:07:55 <pkumar> thanks, I remove the blank space.
238 2011-05-02T23:08:05 <pkumar> removed*
239 2011-05-02T23:09:17 <ThomasWaldmann> http://codemirror.net/ <- better editor instead of textarea?
240 2011-05-02T23:12:58 <asmodai> mmm
241 2011-05-02T23:13:13 <asmodai> that flatland should just be installed with an pip install flatland==dev - right?
242 2011-05-02T23:19:26 <ThomasWaldmann> it should be installed automatically, see setup.py
243 2011-05-02T23:19:37 <ThomasWaldmann> and there is no recent release afaik
244 2011-05-02T23:22:13 <asmodai> Looks like the current version's setup.py causes issues with pip/easy_install
245 2011-05-02T23:23:14 <asmodai> of flatland, not moin
246 2011-05-02T23:23:53 <ThomasWaldmann> hmm, it worked a few days ago
247 2011-05-02T23:24:09 <ThomasWaldmann> do you have a recent virtualenv/pip?
248 2011-05-02T23:24:29 <asmodai> File "/home/asmodai/projects/moinmoin2/build/flatland/setup.py", line 51, in <module>
249 2011-05-02T23:24:32 <asmodai> **extra_setup)
250 2011-05-02T23:24:33 <asmodai> yeah. latest pip
251 2011-05-02T23:24:35 <asmodai> TypeError: unsupported operand type(s) for ** or pow(): 'list' and 'dict'
252 2011-05-02T23:24:48 <ThomasWaldmann> jek: ^^
253 2011-05-02T23:24:53 <asmodai> not using virtualenv, since I want to use a 'normal' install.
254 2011-05-02T23:25:16 <asmodai> easy_install gives:
255 2011-05-02T23:25:17 <asmodai> File "setup.py", line 51, in <module>
256 2011-05-02T23:25:17 <asmodai> Topic :: Text Processing :: Markup""".splitlines(),
257 2011-05-02T23:28:14 <ThomasWaldmann> hah, comma missing
258 2011-05-02T23:28:27 <ThomasWaldmann> https://bitbucket.org/jek/flatland/src/d644ad0abfdc/setup.py#cl-50 there
259 2011-05-02T23:28:51 <ThomasWaldmann> the blinker stuff is a recent change
260 2011-05-02T23:28:54 <asmodai> lol
261 2011-05-02T23:32:03 <ThomasWaldmann> asmodai: retry
262 2011-05-02T23:33:30 <ThomasWaldmann> jek: fixed :)
263 2011-05-02T23:35:16 <asmodai> oh fixed it locally already ^^
264 2011-05-02T23:36:15 <ThomasWaldmann> so it finished setup?
265 2011-05-02T23:36:47 <ThomasWaldmann> btw, the quickinstall depends a bit on the virtualenv being in ./env/
266 2011-05-02T23:37:05 <ThomasWaldmann> so, if you install it to somewhere else, it's less quick :)
267 2011-05-02T23:38:08 <asmodai> Yes, not using quickinstall
268 2011-05-02T23:38:33 <asmodai> Going the way of doing it hard.
