1 2012-02-01T00:01:04 *** humbu
2 2012-02-01T00:58:55 *** CIA-52
3 2012-02-01T01:16:10 *** CIA-64
4 2012-02-01T03:57:18 *** sudo_dirk
5 2012-02-01T06:03:33 *** sudo_dirk
6 2012-02-01T08:57:12 <dreimark> moin
7 2012-02-01T08:57:34 <dreimark> sudo_dirk: you should only develop without installtion to an other place
8 2012-02-01T08:57:49 <dreimark> best is to work in the clone itselfs
9 2012-02-01T09:53:34 *** qxcv
10 2012-02-01T10:09:11 *** greg_f
11 2012-02-01T12:05:18 <ThomasWaldmann> moin
12 2012-02-01T13:12:15 *** qxcv
13 2012-02-01T13:34:26 *** dave_largo
14 2012-02-01T13:36:56 <ThomasWaldmann> dreimark: https://bitbucket.org/thomaswaldmann/moin-2.0/issue/107/hierachical-acls
15 2012-02-01T13:43:53 <ThomasWaldmann> xorAxAx: waldi: if you have time, review the acl implementation ideas ^^
16 2012-02-01T13:49:27 <dreimark> ThomasWaldmann: this requires that when a new subitem is created it inherits the effective acls and that this is saved automaticly
17 2012-02-01T13:49:51 <ThomasWaldmann> huh?
18 2012-02-01T13:49:58 <dreimark> a user does with the "old" hacl not care on given acls
19 2012-02-01T13:50:35 <dreimark> I wasrefereing to " one option we could implement when adding/changing/removing names (alias, rename, delete) is to determine the currently inherited ACLs and to COPY them to the revision metadata."
20 2012-02-01T13:50:59 <dreimark> if we do that at this time we have to do it always
21 2012-02-01T13:52:44 <ThomasWaldmann> if you create a new subitem (using hieracl), it naturally inherits parents acls, you don't need to copy in that case
22 2012-02-01T13:53:20 <dreimark> but if it would be copied all name/right conflicts are solved
23 2012-02-01T13:54:52 <dreimark> and you have no effects if you change hacl=False
24 2012-02-01T13:54:53 <ThomasWaldmann> then you have no hieracls
25 2012-02-01T13:55:04 <ThomasWaldmann> (and you don't need them)
26 2012-02-01T13:55:27 <dreimark> it is just a mechanism to set the effective rights on each item
27 2012-02-01T13:55:32 <ThomasWaldmann> but in that case, it wouldn't be easy to change acls, because you have them copied all over the place
28 2012-02-01T13:55:43 <dreimark> and it is automated
29 2012-02-01T13:56:35 <dreimark> it is not easy without some process
30 2012-02-01T13:56:46 <ThomasWaldmann> (and maybe not just copied, but copied and modified later)
31 2012-02-01T13:57:21 <dreimark> i mean whatever path we follow it is extremly complicated without new tools to change acls
32 2012-02-01T13:57:42 <ThomasWaldmann> so while that would make acl system faster, it would make human managment of acls more complicated
33 2012-02-01T13:59:48 <dreimark> if we have a feature which checks the changes or requires approval it may become better than now
34 2012-02-01T14:00:11 <dreimark> currently the diffcult thing is that if I have before and admin rights
35 2012-02-01T14:00:36 <dreimark> i can do whatever i want but i can't see the problems
36 2012-02-01T14:00:59 <ThomasWaldmann> that's a different problem
37 2012-02-01T14:01:16 <dreimark> and at least if i am in hacl on an item i can directly see what rights this has
38 2012-02-01T14:02:04 <dreimark> ha, we at least can do this virtual
39 2012-02-01T14:02:34 <ThomasWaldmann> i think I'll try changing the code so one can query the effective acl for an item
40 2012-02-01T14:02:40 <dreimark> if it is computed we can show it similiar to a meta entry
41 2012-02-01T14:02:59 <dreimark> yeah
42 2012-02-01T14:06:56 * dreimark we need a place to show computed read only meta data
43 2012-02-01T14:22:39 <ThomasWaldmann> with the new theme, we have a place for metadata (and more)
44 2012-02-01T15:03:44 <sudo_dirk> moin
45 2012-02-01T15:04:40 <sudo_dirk> dreimark: it seems that i took a copy of moin2 for development, which was a moin2 from ~/tmp... while getting moin2 running.
46 2012-02-01T15:05:10 <sudo_dirk> i deleted all moin2 except of my developing version now ;-)
47 2012-02-01T15:07:10 <sudo_dirk> is there something similar to wikiutil.renderText in moin2? i would try to use the mechanism in moinwiki_in.py if not, but expect trouble on the way doing this.
48 2012-02-01T15:15:11 <ThomasWaldmann> sudo_dirk: if you want a complete conversion, you need to chain as you see in MoinMoin.apps.frontend.views
49 2012-02-01T15:16:21 <ThomasWaldmann> (what your own converter shall do and whether it converts to dom or directly to a single desired output format is of course up to you and depends on what you want to do)
50 2012-02-01T15:17:35 <ThomasWaldmann> ah, ubuntu 10.04 lts gets ff 9.01
51 2012-02-01T15:21:51 <sudo_dirk> ThomasWaldmann: what means dom?
52 2012-02-01T15:22:31 <ThomasWaldmann> that's the internal tree-like representation of content
53 2012-02-01T15:23:04 <ThomasWaldmann> e.g. we convert: wiki markup -> dom, dom -> html
54 2012-02-01T15:23:30 <ThomasWaldmann> + some more intermediate steps to deal with links, macros, includes, ...
55 2012-02-01T15:28:55 <sudo_dirk> ThomasWaldmann: thanks, i will have a look. so my main issues is to chow parts of my new markup as wiki markup text. possibly a date field, some smileys, ...
56 2012-02-01T15:30:30 *** sudo_dirk2
57 2012-02-01T15:31:02 <ThomasWaldmann> what's your goal?
58 2012-02-01T15:31:43 <sudo_dirk2> a todo list in moin.
59 2012-02-01T15:32:16 <sudo_dirk2> an own converter, editor and a macro to collect some tasks in a list.
60 2012-02-01T15:33:50 <sudo_dirk2> i have a moin1 implementation from my early python days. i'd like to rework it for moin2.
61 2012-02-01T15:37:31 <sudo_dirk2> https://alders.homelinux.net/moin2_test/TaskList/task1
62 2012-02-01T15:37:56 <sudo_dirk2> this is the first step on the way:-)
63 2012-02-01T15:39:49 <ThomasWaldmann> sudo_dirk: if you just use subitems (of moin wiki or other markup type) and include them, that might be easier to manage
64 2012-02-01T15:42:50 <sudo_dirk2> ah, then i get the full functionality of moin wiki markup and add just my changes...
65 2012-02-01T15:45:11 <ThomasWaldmann> waldi: do you know how widespread (or not) and well-supported (or not) xattr is on linux and applications?
66 2012-02-01T15:53:03 <ThomasWaldmann> sudo_dirk: yes, and adding and deleting of items doesn't change the other items and does not need "editing" some big thing
67 2012-02-01T15:53:45 <ThomasWaldmann> you can use search and metadata for a lot of what you need then
68 2012-02-01T15:54:06 <ThomasWaldmann> in fact, you are working on a issue tracker for moin :D
69 2012-02-01T15:54:38 <ThomasWaldmann> so i suggest you stop coding and start planning
70 2012-02-01T16:00:05 <ThomasWaldmann> (like creating a wiki page for it and a etherpad)
71 2012-02-01T16:15:57 *** humbu
72 2012-02-01T16:19:40 *** raignarok
73 2012-02-01T16:31:05 <waldi> ThomasWaldmann: all filesystems supports them. user xattr should be enabled by default in the meantime
74 2012-02-01T16:32:47 <ThomasWaldmann> rsync also supports them. but what do e.g. other tools do? cp? vim? ...?
75 2012-02-01T16:33:47 <waldi> cp yes, vim is an editor and does not care
76 2012-02-01T16:33:47 <ThomasWaldmann> is there some interactive xattr editor?
77 2012-02-01T16:34:03 <waldi> no idea
78 2012-02-01T16:34:58 <ThomasWaldmann> well, "does not care" means in that case (just tried it): destroy xattrs
79 2012-02-01T16:35:04 <xorAxAx> waldi: not really, i dont know any system where user_xattr is enabled
80 2012-02-01T16:35:20 <xorAxAx> in fact, i had it enabled on my laptop and it lead to ext3 crashes
81 2012-02-01T16:35:33 <ThomasWaldmann> xorAxAx: kernel?
82 2012-02-01T16:35:38 <xorAxAx> 2.6.35
83 2012-02-01T16:35:42 <xorAxAx> back then
84 2012-02-01T16:36:00 * ThomasWaldmann has 2.6.32 here (u10.04lts)
85 2012-02-01T16:36:15 <ThomasWaldmann> xorAxAx: crash means data loss?
86 2012-02-01T16:37:10 <xorAxAx> no, severe structural problems with a long fsck run
87 2012-02-01T16:37:34 <xorAxAx> beagle used xattrs heavily on my machine
88 2012-02-01T16:37:48 <xorAxAx> the fs crashed every few months
89 2012-02-01T16:38:42 <sudo_dirk2> ThomasWaldmann: i thought to create for each task an item as a subpage of the page where i handle the list (issuecollector). those items are just numbers. that means i have .../OpenIssues for the issuecollector and .../OpenIssues/[1-]. each item has a state. there will be a parameter for the "issuecollector" to choose which task should be in the list. each task in the list gets an edit button and a link to the page. i think i will also
90 2012-02-01T16:38:44 <sudo_dirk2> implement extended search (not subpages only) that is my plan for the moment.
91 2012-02-01T16:39:07 <ThomasWaldmann> hmm, looks like beagle is dead
92 2012-02-01T16:39:36 <sudo_dirk2> ThomasWaldmann: the task can also be named by the user...
93 2012-02-01T16:41:05 <ThomasWaldmann> sudo_dirk2: most of what you describe is just a search with a specific query and result ordering
94 2012-02-01T16:41:44 <ThomasWaldmann> (if you just put the special stuff into metadata, which you can do right now when using dynamic fields)
95 2012-02-01T16:42:43 <waldi> xorAxAx: all new extX filesystems have it enabled
96 2012-02-01T16:43:07 <ThomasWaldmann> waldi: by default mount options?
97 2012-02-01T16:43:38 <xorAxAx> waldi: then my file systems are too old :)
98 2012-02-01T16:43:49 * ThomasWaldmann had to use user_xattr in mount options
99 2012-02-01T16:44:16 <xorAxAx> in waldi's linux 3.3 world, he might be right
100 2012-02-01T16:44:54 <ThomasWaldmann> well, it looks like some more of us could be in a 3.2 world soon. they announced they want to use it for 12.04 lts
101 2012-02-01T16:45:16 <waldi> xorAxAx: the relevant software is called e2fsprogs and it uses a config file /etc/mke2fs.conf
102 2012-02-01T16:45:17 <ThomasWaldmann> and also for next debian stable later
103 2012-02-01T16:45:39 <waldi> e2fsprogs 1.42 i assume
104 2012-02-01T16:47:44 <ThomasWaldmann> hmm, i have ext_attr there in defaults
105 2012-02-01T16:48:38 * ThomasWaldmann just thinks about another filesystem backend using xattr for metadata
106 2012-02-01T16:49:32 *** humbu
107 2012-02-01T17:03:23 <sudo_dirk2> ThomasWaldmann: yes, the metadata is brandnew for me. is there already a converter using metadata infomation? then i can have a look how to get metadata inside a converter.
108 2012-02-01T17:07:16 <ThomasWaldmann> as I said, maybe first do the planning, then decide about the code you need
109 2012-02-01T17:09:23 <ThomasWaldmann> sudo_dirk2: a revision is just metadata + data. metadata is basically a dict of strings -> values, data is just anything (text or binary).
110 2012-02-01T17:09:54 <ThomasWaldmann> so data could be just some blabla for your todo
111 2012-02-01T17:10:27 <ThomasWaldmann> metadata could include priority, severity, difficulty, status
112 2012-02-01T17:11:08 <sudo_dirk2> i am sure that this is what i need. i planned just to store the not moin wiki text together with the rest of the information. the only question is, if you view the diff, are you able to see the differences in the metadata, too?
113 2012-02-01T17:11:13 <ThomasWaldmann> planning means e.g. defining all metadata items you need, what you want to put into data (for one todo item)
114 2012-02-01T17:11:53 <sudo_dirk2> i already have such a list.
115 2012-02-01T17:12:10 <ThomasWaldmann> put it onto etherpad
116 2012-02-01T17:12:29 <sudo_dirk2> ThomasWaldmann: etherpad?
117 2012-02-01T17:12:34 <ThomasWaldmann> http://etherpad.osuosl.org/moin2-issuetracker
118 2012-02-01T17:13:02 <ThomasWaldmann> or -todolist, if you think it is something different
119 2012-02-01T17:13:38 <sudo_dirk2> allowed_keys=['description', 'effort', 'priority', 'progress', 'state', 'target date'], desciption is the moin wiki text then. the rest is metadata.
120 2012-02-01T17:14:29 <ThomasWaldmann> severity and difficulty is missing
121 2012-02-01T17:15:20 * ThomasWaldmann thought about issue tracking metadata already after noticing the fsckup they did on bitbucket
122 2012-02-01T17:15:44 <ThomasWaldmann> (and same thing for google gci tasks)
123 2012-02-01T17:17:39 <sudo_dirk2> severity is close to priority
124 2012-02-01T17:18:09 <ThomasWaldmann> priority is a managment decision based on severity, difficulty, effort and other factors
125 2012-02-01T17:19:05 <ThomasWaldmann> s, d, e are characteristics of the issue
126 2012-02-01T17:19:32 <ThomasWaldmann> p is not.
127 2012-02-01T17:20:14 <sudo_dirk2> yep, then i change the name and add difficulty.
128 2012-02-01T17:22:27 <ThomasWaldmann> bitbucket completely failed by putting a mix of all that into a single value and mislabeled it priority (with values: trivial, minor, major, critical, blocker)
129 2012-02-01T17:23:03 <sudo_dirk2> and i also have restricted the content of some properties (state: open, finished, closed), but this is easy to change in my implementation. the goal is also to learn about moin2.
130 2012-02-01T17:23:59 <ThomasWaldmann> maybe have a loot at typical issues trackers and copy the good stuff
131 2012-02-01T17:24:19 <ThomasWaldmann> look*
132 2012-02-01T17:27:35 <sudo_dirk2> all right. i do this in parallel. i implement it that way that it is easy to change those stuff and learn how to do converters items, editors, ...
133 2012-02-01T17:32:08 <ThomasWaldmann> sudo_dirk2: see http://etherpad.osuosl.org/moin2-issuetracker
134 2012-02-01T17:40:05 <sudo_dirk2> i see you typing :P. i think ordering could be a algorithm that looks on effort (if this are days), target date, and todays date.
135 2012-02-01T17:52:09 <ThomasWaldmann> you can type at the same time btw :)
136 2012-02-01T17:55:06 *** greg_f
137 2012-02-01T17:56:38 <sudo_dirk2> typing together at the same time... synchronous typing... hard stuff ;-)
138 2012-02-01T18:06:55 <sudo_dirk2> hey, we are on the way doing another MKS, doors, ... but this one should be better ;-) at least then mks
139 2012-02-01T18:10:33 <ThomasWaldmann> i don't know any of them
140 2012-02-01T18:26:38 <sudo_dirk2> ThomasWaldmann: it is a software like source safe, subvesion together with requirement management. and a acronym for Maul und KlauenSeuche. this is close to each other ;-)
141 2012-02-01T18:26:54 <ThomasWaldmann> lol
142 2012-02-01T18:48:00 <ThomasWaldmann> gtg/bbl
143 2012-02-01T19:28:46 *** raignarok
144 2012-02-01T19:57:40 <sudo_dirk2> bb
145 2012-02-01T19:57:52 *** sudo_dirk2
146 2012-02-01T20:24:16 *** sudo_dirk2
147 2012-02-01T20:24:21 *** sudo_dirk2
148 2012-02-01T20:39:25 *** raignarok
149 2012-02-01T20:41:20 *** raignarok
150 2012-02-01T21:21:47 <ThomasWaldmann> waldi: looks like xattrs does not scale, limited to 1 block
151 2012-02-01T22:06:20 *** dave_largo
152 2012-02-01T22:16:55 <ronny> yo
153 2012-02-01T22:17:11 <ronny> ThomasWaldmann: whats that about xattr scale?
154 2012-02-01T22:29:06 <ThomasWaldmann> it sucks
155 2012-02-01T22:29:13 <ThomasWaldmann> 4KB usually
156 2012-02-01T22:29:18 <ThomasWaldmann> per file
157 2012-02-01T22:29:53 <ThomasWaldmann> == not enough to reliable store moin revision metadata
158 2012-02-01T23:52:13 <ronny> k
