1 2012-05-14T00:00:29 *** dwcramer
2 2012-05-14T00:13:29 *** dwcramer
3 2012-05-14T01:44:47 *** spy
4 2012-05-14T04:57:44 *** dwcramer
5 2012-05-14T06:18:03 *** Trip_
6 2012-05-14T06:21:15 *** MattMaker
7 2012-05-14T07:38:52 *** Trip_
8 2012-05-14T07:45:57 *** MattMaker
9 2012-05-14T08:21:31 <dreimark> moin
10 2012-05-14T09:29:56 *** MattMaker
11 2012-05-14T09:38:33 *** MattMaker
12 2012-05-14T09:52:53 *** MattMaker
13 2012-05-14T10:08:33 <breton> ThomasWaldmann: I wonder, is it possible to have something like a global meta for item? One file or entry somewhere for each itemid. Is there something like this in moin2 now?
14 2012-05-14T10:09:43 <breton> we could keep there th whole branching stuff
15 2012-05-14T10:23:55 *** xjjk
16 2012-05-14T10:24:07 *** xjjk
17 2012-05-14T10:48:31 <breton> hmm, where is ACL is saved now?
18 2012-05-14T10:48:49 <breton> s/ACL is/ACL/
19 2012-05-14T10:49:02 <dreimark> breton: in meta
20 2012-05-14T10:50:33 <dreimark> http://readthedocs.org/docs/moin-20/en/latest/devel/api/MoinMoin.storage.html?highlight=acl
21 2012-05-14T11:29:33 *** greg_f
22 2012-05-14T11:42:44 <ThomasWaldmann> breton: first define precisely what you need, then we see how to store
23 2012-05-14T12:30:39 * xiaq is reading jinja templates
24 2012-05-14T12:31:02 * xiaq is wondering where to put summary on the page :)
25 2012-05-14T12:35:18 <xiaq> question: how can i embed the werkzeug debugger into the page?
26 2012-05-14T12:37:20 <xiaq> the way i used to debug templates is inserting [i]pdb.set_trace into the template and dubug in the terminal, but since werkzeug provides a nice web debugger ;) let's try it
27 2012-05-14T12:53:16 <xiaq> another question: does Jinja has filter corresponding to str.format? the format filters corresponds to % operator
28 2012-05-14T12:53:31 <xiaq> s/filter/builtin filter/g
29 2012-05-14T12:56:49 <ronny> xiaq: i dont think so, but it should be easy to make one, about 3-4 lines or so
30 2012-05-14T12:58:40 * xiaq sticks to Jinja builtin format
31 2012-05-14T12:59:57 * xiaq gets TypeError with {{ _('Summary: %s')|format(item.meta['summary']) }}
32 2012-05-14T13:00:00 <xiaq> {{ _('Summary: %s')|format(item.meta['summary']) }}
33 2012-05-14T13:00:12 <xiaq> what's wrong?
34 2012-05-14T13:00:33 <xiaq> {{ 'Summary: %s'|format(item.meta['summary']) }} works fine
35 2012-05-14T13:02:04 <ronny> no idea? whats the type _ returns?
36 2012-05-14T13:02:39 <xiaq> don't know yet, since the Werkzeug debugger interprets _ as last evaluated value...
37 2012-05-14T13:04:03 <xiaq> seems to have something to do with unicode/str stuff...
38 2012-05-14T13:06:21 * xiaq is finally going to learn the terrible unicode/str lessons every Python programmer has to learn
39 2012-05-14T13:10:25 <dreimark> xiaq: watch http://nedbatchelder.com/text/unipain.html
40 2012-05-14T13:10:52 <dreimark> _ is used normally for i18n
41 2012-05-14T13:11:05 <xiaq> dreimark: yeah known this
42 2012-05-14T13:11:30 <xiaq> dreimark: thx for the link, but gtg soon
43 2012-05-14T13:12:10 <dreimark> which type is item.meta['summary'] ?
44 2012-05-14T13:12:48 <xiaq> unicode
45 2012-05-14T13:14:06 <xiaq> Jinja doc has:
46 2012-05-14T13:14:06 <xiaq> {{ _('Hello %(user)s!')|format(user=user.username) }}
47 2012-05-14T13:14:18 <dreimark> well that both is usually ascii
48 2012-05-14T13:14:19 <xiaq> so i just changed to:
49 2012-05-14T13:14:22 <xiaq> {{ _('Summary: %(summary)s')|format(summary=item.meta['summary']) }}
50 2012-05-14T13:14:31 <dreimark> and ascii is 1byte code in unicode too
51 2012-05-14T13:14:35 <xiaq> which gives me "TypeError: not all arguments converted during string formatting
52 2012-05-14T13:15:04 <xiaq> dreimark: Ha, as CJK person i knew Unicode and utf8 well already
53 2012-05-14T13:15:24 <xiaq> dreimark: i just avoided processing unicode in Python every time :)
54 2012-05-14T13:15:55 * xiaq gtg
55 2012-05-14T13:15:59 <dreimark> true, we have some simlar problems in our lang
56 2012-05-14T13:19:55 <dreimark> format(value, *args, **kwargs)
57 2012-05-14T13:19:57 <dreimark> Apply python string formatting on an object:
58 2012-05-14T13:36:02 *** spy
59 2012-05-14T13:57:14 *** dwcramer
60 2012-05-14T14:23:01 *** MattMaker
61 2012-05-14T14:59:34 *** dwcramer
62 2012-05-14T15:14:11 *** kanha_
63 2012-05-14T15:15:09 *** kanha
64 2012-05-14T15:42:22 *** dave_largo
65 2012-05-14T15:48:14 <breton> ThomasWaldmann: http://etherpad.osuosl.org/moin2-bms 28-30, 49, 51 and 24 regarging multiple parentid. Will read the comments in ~8h from now.
66 2012-05-14T15:49:59 <breton> gn
67 2012-05-14T16:23:14 *** dwcramer
68 2012-05-14T16:24:10 * ThomasWaldmann answered on breton's etherpad
69 2012-05-14T17:27:59 <MaikuMori> moin
70 2012-05-14T17:40:54 *** DasIch_
71 2012-05-14T17:41:01 *** DasIch
72 2012-05-14T17:41:01 *** DasIch_
73 2012-05-14T18:03:06 *** dwcramer
74 2012-05-14T18:44:24 <ThomasWaldmann> hi MaikuMori
75 2012-05-14T18:44:30 <MaikuMori> Heya
76 2012-05-14T18:48:22 <ThomasWaldmann> spy and me have just found we have the same "how to present this thing" issue as for the ticket items
77 2012-05-14T18:48:35 <ThomasWaldmann> (for the blog items in that case)
78 2012-05-14T18:49:38 <ThomasWaldmann> and I think it might repeat for DasIch and the pastebin, so it would be good if you all discuss how to solve best
79 2012-05-14T18:50:39 <ThomasWaldmann> DasIch: there are some ideas in the ticket system etherpad, but they need more thinking / details
80 2012-05-14T18:51:05 *** dwcramer
81 2012-05-14T18:55:50 <MaikuMori> ThomasWaldmann: have you read http://moinmo.in/EugeneSyromyatnikov/PluginConcept ?
82 2012-05-14T18:59:53 *** dwcramer
83 2012-05-14T19:01:32 *** greg_f
84 2012-05-14T19:02:27 * ThomasWaldmann just reading it
85 2012-05-14T19:04:34 <ronny> scary
86 2012-05-14T19:10:45 *** dwcramer
87 2012-05-14T19:14:36 *** esyr
88 2012-05-14T19:14:53 *** esyr
89 2012-05-14T19:22:00 *** esyr_
90 2012-05-14T19:22:00 *** esyr
91 2012-05-14T19:23:53 * ThomasWaldmann hopes we won't reinvent zope2 :D
92 2012-05-14T19:28:04 *** esyr_
93 2012-05-14T19:46:26 *** esyr
94 2012-05-14T20:06:49 *** esyr
95 2012-05-14T20:08:28 *** esyr
96 2012-05-14T20:14:28 *** esyr
97 2012-05-14T20:23:17 *** esyr
98 2012-05-14T20:29:17 <esyr> hm.
99 2012-05-14T20:31:09 <esyr> ThomasWaldmann: MaikuMori: is it only me or you get 504 when trying to get history/ol page revs on ep too?
100 2012-05-14T20:40:35 *** esyr
101 2012-05-14T20:43:45 <ThomasWaldmann> yup, 504 here too.
102 2012-05-14T20:50:08 *** esyr
103 2012-05-14T20:57:41 *** esyr
104 2012-05-14T20:58:25 *** esyr
105 2012-05-14T21:05:22 <ThomasWaldmann> esyr: yup, 504 here too.
106 2012-05-14T21:05:40 <esyr> that's bad.
107 2012-05-14T21:06:05 <esyr> eventually during reconnect i loss revision where paste problem haven't been introduced yet.
108 2012-05-14T21:06:11 <esyr> *i lost
109 2012-05-14T21:06:31 <esyr> ok, try to remember what was there.
110 2012-05-14T21:10:11 <MaikuMori> ThomasWaldmann: regarding interfaces being 'javaish'
111 2012-05-14T21:10:15 <MaikuMori> Well it's a design pattern, most of them are used in Java.
112 2012-05-14T21:11:28 <MaikuMori> ABC's are almost the same. Anyhow I agree that zope is more or less this legacy package which everyones tries to forget.
113 2012-05-14T21:11:43 <ThomasWaldmann> no ' for plurals, please :)
114 2012-05-14T21:12:43 <MaikuMori> Alright :)
115 2012-05-14T21:14:17 <MaikuMori> The only reason I brought it up is because many plugin systems use zope.interface. I personally would choose ABCs.
116 2012-05-14T21:22:34 * ThomasWaldmann looks at zope.interface
117 2012-05-14T21:31:06 <MaikuMori> Hmm, ep died.
118 2012-05-14T21:34:18 <esyr> MaikuMori: looks like there's only one thread for all :\
119 2012-05-14T21:34:28 * esyr tried to reload those 504 pages
120 2012-05-14T21:34:35 <MaikuMori> It's back now.
121 2012-05-14T21:36:48 <esyr> yeah.
122 2012-05-14T21:36:48 <esyr> so, now you know how to ddos ep :)
123 2012-05-14T21:41:21 *** esyr
124 2012-05-14T21:44:07 <ThomasWaldmann> well, i looked at z.i, and i somehow can't help: i don't like it
125 2012-05-14T21:45:43 <ThomasWaldmann> it's not PEP8, it's somehow looks javaesque and it's not really needed (convince me if you think otherwise :)
126 2012-05-14T21:47:25 <MaikuMori> I don't think I even want to try.
127 2012-05-14T21:47:55 <MaikuMori> Have you seen the recent versions of the plugin EP?
128 2012-05-14T21:48:56 <MaikuMori> Some of the proposed stuff seems way out of scope at the moment. Correct me if I'm wrong
129 2012-05-14T21:49:36 *** esyr
130 2012-05-14T21:50:23 <ThomasWaldmann> MaikuMori: the ep needs better separation, in fundamental stuff and in applications of that (e.g. for moin)
131 2012-05-14T21:51:01 <MaikuMori> Agree. I meant the 'plugins provide tests' and similar stuff
132 2012-05-14T21:52:29 <ThomasWaldmann> line?
133 2012-05-14T21:53:44 <MaikuMori> Ah it's a bit changed now 158, 162
134 2012-05-14T21:53:57 <MaikuMori> also 123
135 2012-05-14T21:54:35 <MaikuMori> Alright I'm off to bed. Will do a lot more work tomorrow.
136 2012-05-14T21:58:20 *** esyr
137 2012-05-14T22:02:22 *** esyr
138 2012-05-14T22:03:11 <ThomasWaldmann> esyr: your internet connection seems quite unstable right now
139 2012-05-14T22:13:23 <ronny> MaikuMori: you wrote that plugin proposal?
140 2012-05-14T22:13:39 <MaikuMori> Which one?
141 2012-05-14T22:13:53 <ronny> http://moinmo.in/EugeneSyromyatnikov/PluginConcept
142 2012-05-14T22:14:09 <MaikuMori> Nope, it's by EugeneSyromyatnikov
143 2012-05-14T22:14:15 <ronny> ok
144 2012-05-14T22:14:25 <ronny> its totally overengineered
145 2012-05-14T22:15:39 <ThomasWaldmann> ronny: your suggestion?
146 2012-05-14T22:16:18 <ronny> start from current reality instead and engineer well selected extension points
147 2012-05-14T22:16:33 *** dwcramer
148 2012-05-14T22:16:39 <ronny> i.e. backends, authentication, actions
149 2012-05-14T22:16:52 <ronny> well, and themes
150 2012-05-14T22:17:25 <ronny> all ofthose things have well defined and/or well known interfaces
151 2012-05-14T22:18:32 <ronny> some need to handle contect creation, others just request/response or data
152 2012-05-14T22:19:10 <ronny> gien how they work its even interesting to see if there is a way to handle some of it in wikiconfig instead of discovery
153 2012-05-14T22:19:24 <ronny> i.e. actions and backends and auth
154 2012-05-14T22:19:39 <ronny> macros may have some merit
155 2012-05-14T22:19:55 <ronny> but on the other hand its trobulesome if system level installs break wikipages due to removing one
156 2012-05-14T22:20:14 <ronny> so well
157 2012-05-14T22:20:25 <ronny> im not sure if autodiscovery alone makes sense
158 2012-05-14T22:20:33 <ronny> except for naming them for easy use in a config
159 2012-05-14T22:21:05 <ronny> which leaves one withh well defined intefaces already there, entry-points for discovery and config for enabling
160 2012-05-14T22:21:11 <ronny> do you follow?
161 2012-05-14T22:21:21 <ThomasWaldmann> MaikuMori: ^^ (hope you read it tomorrow in the logs)
162 2012-05-14T22:22:03 <MaikuMori> Reading it now, but yeah consider me already away. Those are good points.
163 2012-05-14T22:23:19 <ThomasWaldmann> i agree about keeping good interfaces we already have
164 2012-05-14T22:25:08 <ThomasWaldmann> and if one wants to be able to have some extensions NOT enabled, the easiest way is to just list all stuff one wants to have
165 2012-05-14T22:26:18 <ronny> who is EugeneSyromyatnikov? esyr?
166 2012-05-14T22:26:27 <ThomasWaldmann> yes
167 2012-05-14T22:26:38 <ThomasWaldmann> much easier :D
168 2012-05-14T22:26:39 <ronny> k
169 2012-05-14T22:27:19 <ronny> esyr: you commited the basic crime of premature generalization + use of java patterns
170 2012-05-14T22:28:37 <ThomasWaldmann> :D
171 2012-05-14T22:29:34 <ronny> thats how zope started :P
172 2012-05-14T22:29:39 <esyr> bwahahahah.
173 2012-05-14T22:29:59 <esyr> ThomasWaldmann: connectivity from collocation to freenode, yes.
174 2012-05-14T22:30:32 <ronny> esyr: how do you think about it after my notes?
175 2012-05-14T22:30:41 <esyr> i'm thinking.
176 2012-05-14T22:31:13 <esyr> ronny: well, i can't see how my proposal conflicts with your notes currently.
177 2012-05-14T22:31:26 <ronny> esyr: its an antithesis
178 2012-05-14T22:31:40 *** dwcramer
179 2012-05-14T22:31:42 <ronny> also note that in code registration is useless
180 2012-05-14T22:31:47 <esyr> i mean, i can't see why predefined extension points can't live together with generic modular core.
181 2012-05-14T22:32:04 <ronny> esyr: why is there need for a generic modular core to begin with?
182 2012-05-14T22:32:21 <ronny> moin is not an endles flexible application frameworks
183 2012-05-14T22:32:37 <esyr> ronny: why not? :)
184 2012-05-14T22:32:51 <ronny> esyr: overengineering sucks
185 2012-05-14T22:32:51 <esyr> i mean, i'd like to use moin in any imaginable way.
186 2012-05-14T22:32:58 <esyr> and it fits!
187 2012-05-14T22:33:01 <esyr> 1.x mostly.
188 2012-05-14T22:33:25 <esyr> it has some drawbacks though, but it suits for nearly any application.
189 2012-05-14T22:33:29 <ronny> but well, we have storages, we have actions, we have auth, we have themes, we have macros
190 2012-05-14T22:33:38 <ronny> all of those have interfaces already
191 2012-05-14T22:33:57 <ronny> so we just need ways to register new ones with a name -> entrypoints
192 2012-05-14T22:34:13 <esyr> ronny: yes, for me action is rather tight restriction.
193 2012-05-14T22:34:37 <ronny> hmm, what would you like to see?
194 2012-05-14T22:34:50 <ronny> note tht there are contenttypes and their neogation
195 2012-05-14T22:35:12 <ronny> so crud actions fit very many things
196 2012-05-14T22:35:13 <esyr> well, i'd like to have possibility to redefine and extend any part of moin.
197 2012-05-14T22:35:22 <ronny> speak in usecases
198 2012-05-14T22:35:29 <ronny> not abstract gibberish
199 2012-05-14T22:35:35 <esyr> ronny: for example, if i want to integrate moin with ldap.
200 2012-05-14T22:35:46 <ronny> for auth?
201 2012-05-14T22:35:49 <ronny> thats auth
202 2012-05-14T22:35:51 <esyr> for auth and acl.
203 2012-05-14T22:36:12 <esyr> what should i do if i want to get acl from ldap? or from authz?
204 2012-05-14T22:36:29 <esyr> for different paths.
205 2012-05-14T22:36:38 <ronny> ThomasWaldmann: any intents to have external acl?
206 2012-05-14T22:36:50 <esyr> i need to have appropriate entry points for redefining permission checks, fine.
207 2012-05-14T22:36:58 <ronny> esyr: basically you need a router that cobines metadata with ldap data
208 2012-05-14T22:37:07 <ronny> since acl is in meta
209 2012-05-14T22:37:09 <esyr> i don't say this is big problem in particular.
210 2012-05-14T22:37:25 <ronny> the thing is, dont inent absolute overly general interfaces
211 2012-05-14T22:37:37 <esyr> ronny: well, in authz approach all permissions for different paths are stored in external file, for example.
212 2012-05-14T22:37:42 <esyr> (that's other usexase)
213 2012-05-14T22:37:42 <ronny> they make programming things harder and more confusing than necessary
214 2012-05-14T22:37:52 <esyr> well, anyway.
215 2012-05-14T22:38:02 <esyr> i don't insist on my approach.
216 2012-05-14T22:38:13 <esyr> i don't argue that it's not overengineered.
217 2012-05-14T22:38:23 <esyr> (mmm, double negative, sorry)
218 2012-05-14T22:38:33 <ThomasWaldmann> well, I'ld like a rather general approach, but it should be easy to use
219 2012-05-14T22:38:53 <esyr> but i think approach should be more general than in 1.x.
220 2012-05-14T22:38:59 <ronny> esyr: exotic uecses that make sense will help reshaping the interfaces we have
221 2012-05-14T22:39:08 <esyr> at least, i want to have ability to redefine each part of moin.
222 2012-05-14T22:39:11 <ronny> storage is more flexible now
223 2012-05-14T22:39:20 <esyr> but not at cost of geeral use, of course.
224 2012-05-14T22:39:50 <ronny> esyr: a meta goal like "redefine each part" is bound to mess with general use
225 2012-05-14T22:40:05 <ronny> break it down to use cases and reshape the apis in small iterations
226 2012-05-14T22:40:20 <ronny> that tends to create less pain than a big overgeneral start
227 2012-05-14T22:40:37 <ronny> i have a few projects that still hurt from the overgeneral start
228 2012-05-14T22:41:04 <esyr> ronny: well, for me, i think, that proper definition of interfaces and policies is enough for this.
229 2012-05-14T22:41:25 <esyr> moin1.x is build adhoc in many cases, so redefining it is pai.
230 2012-05-14T22:41:30 <esyr> *is built
231 2012-05-14T22:41:35 <esyr> *in many places
232 2012-05-14T22:41:41 <esyr> *is pain
233 2012-05-14T22:42:10 <esyr> moin2 is better in these terms, we just should settle some policy related to this.
234 2012-05-14T22:42:13 <ThomasWaldmann> we are not reimplementing 1.x plugins
235 2012-05-14T22:42:29 <esyr> of course, this in meaningless in 2.x context.
236 2012-05-14T22:42:46 <esyr> (but we can provide appropriate pluginprovider, hehe)
237 2012-05-14T22:44:04 <ThomasWaldmann> no need
238 2012-05-14T22:46:17 <ThomasWaldmann> esyr: would a shell account here help you for irc backlog/connectivity?
239 2012-05-14T22:46:24 <ronny> esyr: so work on the interfaces, and then we can just use entryoints to make additional implementations known, and enable them by lisinh in a wikiconfig
240 2012-05-14T22:47:50 <esyr> hmmm.
241 2012-05-14T22:48:14 <esyr> ThomasWaldmann: well, if you want to give me shell, i would not argue against it :)
242 2012-05-14T22:48:44 <esyr> ronny: well, the main question is how different parts should connect with each other.
243 2012-05-14T22:49:12 <ronny> esyr: thats already defined in moin
244 2012-05-14T22:49:17 <ronny> it works fine
245 2012-05-14T22:49:27 <ronny> you stuff things together in wikiconfig
246 2012-05-14T22:49:58 <esyr> ronny: do you mean moin1.x?
247 2012-05-14T22:50:49 <ronny> hmm, i mean moin2, there wikiconfig is basically a flask app config
248 2012-05-14T22:50:57 <ronny> i should use bettr wording
249 2012-05-14T22:50:59 <ronny> and some sleep
250 2012-05-14T22:51:02 <ronny> good night
251 2012-05-14T22:51:48 <esyr> ah.
252 2012-05-14T22:52:19 <esyr> well, this leads to explicit manual work and that makes me sad panda.
253 2012-05-14T22:54:02 <ronny> esyr: better than random plugins installed by the server admin breaking your wiki
254 2012-05-14T22:54:07 <ThomasWaldmann> esyr: query
255 2012-05-14T22:55:30 *** in3xes
256 2012-05-14T23:01:12 <esyr> ronny: good point.
257 2012-05-14T23:01:23 <esyr> hmmm.
258 2012-05-14T23:18:30 *** dave_largo
259 2012-05-14T23:20:17 <esyr> hmm, looks like i know in what directions i should move related to concept.
260 2012-05-14T23:20:26 <esyr> try to averhaul it today or tomorrow.
