Using Moin for sharing information and ideas is the basic wiki concept, and Moin does a very cool job there, no doubt about.

After getting familiar with Moin syntax, macros, menus, themes, etc., it is likely that some users may feel that Moin can perfectly used for other purposes as well, such as:

But to do so, Moin needs to be complemented with other functions that currently it still does not have (but you can always manage to do them manually and take longer) and maybe Moin does not need to have them:


For time reasons, I can't write more about this ideas but here's part of one of the IRC conversations about it. 

Dec 09 21:48:03 <mhz>   and office stuff being OOO the heaviest. However, I am installing Moin for all their documenting, hence, OOO will only be used for excel$
Dec 09 21:48:19 <nir>   nice
Dec 09 21:48:33 <nir>   so they will create all their document in moin
Dec 09 21:48:44 <nir>   one big word processor for everyone
Dec 09 21:48:48 <mhz>   I need a Chilean office using FreeSoftware and Moin, to make an example :)
Dec 09 21:48:55 <mhz>   yep!
Dec 09 21:49:05 <mhz>   just like you and I have discussed
Dec 09 21:49:17 <nir>   maybe I will use it also for myself
Dec 09 21:49:27 <nir>   for office stuff
Dec 09 21:49:28 <mhz>   I already use it like that.
Dec 09 21:49:38 <nir>   bill and like
Dec 09 21:49:44 <mhz>   :)
Dec 09 21:49:48 <nir>   I use a word processor now
Dec 09 21:49:53 <nir>   I don't have many docs
Dec 09 21:49:56 <mhz>   do you need it?
Dec 09 21:50:12 <nir>   usually for prices offers, and bills
Dec 09 21:50:19 <nir>   rest is done by email
Dec 09 21:50:33 <mhz>   Moin developers will make me very happy when they incorporate PDF for Moin
Dec 09 21:50:45 <nir>   yea
Dec 09 21:51:03 <nir>   one click to get pdf can be great
Dec 09 21:51:12 <mhz>   so Prices offers can be 100% delt by Moin.
Dec 09 21:51:35 <mhz>   yes, I can make a CSS using Company Header and Footer
Dec 09 21:51:41 <nir>   I can simply do print preview, then click "Save as PDF"
Dec 09 21:51:47 <mhz>   so PrintPdf will use it
Dec 09 21:52:02 <mhz>   you, OS Panther user
Dec 09 21:52:18 <mhz>   not the more "for Freedom people"
Dec 09 21:52:27 <mhz>   :)
Dec 09 21:52:50 <nir>   well, you pay for the hardware
Dec 09 21:53:21 <mhz>   but there's gotta be a way. I used to work for a Web Apps. small company and they produced PDF like a piece of cake!
Dec 09 21:53:51 <nir>   anyway the question is how you organize many non important docs like bils
Dec 09 21:54:00 <mhz>   Guess what I did there... Documenting!
Dec 09 21:54:07 <nir>   maybe in sub pages
Dec 09 21:54:11 <mhz>   yep
Dec 09 21:54:31 <nir>   then you can search all your documents in few seconds
Dec 09 21:54:40 <nir>   even in Hebrew
Dec 09 21:54:44 <nir>   that can be great
Dec 09 21:54:57 <mhz>   what is the generic name for those calculation sheets? (.xls)
Dec 09 21:55:11 <nir>   spreadsheet
Dec 09 21:55:15 <mhz>   yes!!!
Dec 09 21:55:36 <mhz>   for that kind of info, you just need to attach.
Dec 09 21:55:53 <nir>   I'm using a spread sheet to create price offers
Dec 09 21:56:02 <nir>   which rather suck
Dec 09 21:56:16 <nir>   actually what I need is a custom app to do that
Dec 09 21:56:16 <mhz>   I still use that, too. But the output (via mail) always is PDF
Dec 09 21:56:24 <nir>   like:
Dec 09 21:56:35 <nir>   1. do standard work of type x
Dec 09 21:56:47 <nir>   2. do custom work y hours
Dec 09 21:57:03 <nir>   3. pay z for outsource work
Dec 09 21:57:11 <nir>   then I want to get:
Dec 09 21:57:29 <nir>   1. how much money the customer pay
Dec 09 21:57:40 <nir>   2. how much I pay for outsourcing
Dec 09 21:57:51 <nir>   3. how much days it should take
Dec 09 21:58:05 <nir>   4.
Dec 09 21:58:25 <nir>   have a auto crated letter for the client
Dec 09 21:58:37 <nir>   like :
Dec 09 21:58:46 <nir>   these are the jobs that have to be done:
Dec 09 21:58:54 <nir>   list of job with price for each maybe
Dec 09 21:58:58 <nir>   and final price
Dec 09 21:59:10 <nir>   etc
Dec 09 21:59:38 <mhz>   I designed (workflow) exactly that for the company I worked for.I did many of those developments (if you can say it) in FileMaker (I rea$
Dec 09 21:59:59 <mhz>   for. Also I ...
Dec 09 22:00:11 <nir>   I tried file maker but did not had time to complete it
Dec 09 22:00:26 <nir>   so I still use spreadsheet for thsi
Dec 09 22:00:34 <nir>   maye moin can do it
Dec 09 22:00:42 <mhz>   but how about Web apps?
Dec 09 22:00:50 <nir>   did not try
Dec 09 22:01:01 <nir>   I need hebrew in this
Dec 09 22:01:05 <mhz>   there must be like 6 at least.
Dec 09 22:01:06 <nir>   it make life harder
Dec 09 22:01:12 <mhz>   there must be like -6 at least.
Dec 09 22:01:18 <nir>   yea
Dec 09 22:01:19 <mhz>   :)
Dec 09 22:01:39 <nir>   the problem is how you build the list of jobs
Dec 09 22:01:48 <mhz>   See? But you could use Free WebApps and do the translation
Dec 09 22:01:57 <nir>   if you have such list, then is very easy to procude the ouput
Dec 09 22:02:04 <mhz>   it does not sound hard.
Dec 09 22:02:21 <nir>   using text can be hard
Dec 09 22:02:29 <nir>   lot of typing errors
Dec 09 22:02:35 <nir>   maybe a macro
Dec 09 22:02:46 <mhz>   yea, I ment web apps. I know they can do what you need.
Dec 09 22:02:59 <nir>   you add a job, from a menu
Dec 09 22:03:04 <nir>   and a comment
Dec 09 22:03:14 <nir>   it insert the data into a wiki page
Dec 09 22:03:23 <mhz>   e-groupware does something similar about hours and jobs (tasks)
Dec 09 22:03:33 <nir>   then another macro create a letter from the wiki page
Dec 09 22:03:38 <nir>   and shows summary
Dec 09 22:04:13 <nir>   moin can be the data base
Dec 09 22:04:23 <nir>   and the dynamic parts can be macros
Dec 09 22:04:39 <mhz>   Marijn  and I were going to develop exactly that. I was actually desingning the workflow (basic) but we do not longer work together (as $
Dec 09 22:04:54 <nir>   you can have a table with job data in a wiki page
Dec 09 22:05:19 <nir>   each job has hours, client cost, outsource cost etc.
Dec 09 22:05:26 <mhz>   exactly
Dec 09 22:05:37 <nir>   maybe in a csv format
Dec 09 22:05:44 <mhz>   yep
Dec 09 22:05:45 <nir>   #formt plain
Dec 09 22:05:57 <nir>   and then the data in a table like format
Dec 09 22:06:02 <mhz>   exactly
Dec 09 22:06:15 <nir>   then the AddJob macro will build its menu from this table
Dec 09 22:06:56 <nir>   and the Summary macro will add the summary of the current jobs
Dec 09 22:07:51 <nir>   but maybe its easier if all the data is kept in another file
Dec 09 22:08:08 <nir>   and is displayed as html
Dec 09 22:08:09 <mhz>   and there's gotta be another table that keeps the links to other WikiPages
Dec 09 22:08:14 <nir>   as a form
Dec 09 22:08:34 <nir>   so you can add or remove jobs or change quantity in the form
Dec 09 22:08:35 <mhz>   so you can have all ClientPages related
Dec 09 22:09:00 <mhz>   and impact on other pages?
Dec 09 22:09:21 <nir>   what do you mean?
Dec 09 22:09:42 <mhz>   you said "remove jobs or change quantity in the form"
Dec 09 22:09:53 <mhz>   if you can do that...
Dec 09 22:10:07 <mhz>   removing jobs will impact other pages?
Dec 09 22:10:13 <mhz>   I mean,
Dec 09 22:10:14 <nir>   instead of editing the wiki page
Dec 09 22:10:26 <mhz>   yep
Dec 09 22:10:37 <nir>   if the other page is using this page as a data source, then yes
Dec 09 22:10:59 <nir>   the letter for the customer can take its data from the calculate page
Dec 09 22:11:16 <mhz>   and how will you deal with different "states" of a process?
Dec 09 22:11:20 <mhz>   I mean,
Dec 09 22:11:35 <mhz>   you send a quotation to MrBlade
Dec 09 22:11:42 <mhz>   he refuses the price
Dec 09 22:11:52 <mhz>   you send a new one
Dec 09 22:11:57 <nir>   wait
Dec 09 22:11:58 <mhz>   he accepts
Dec 09 22:12:10 <nir>   the question is how I make the new one
Dec 09 22:12:15 <mhz>   hehehe
Dec 09 22:12:30 <nir>   do I change the values and on the calc page?
Dec 09 22:12:32 <mhz>   that 1st question
Dec 09 22:12:37 <nir>   or create a new calc?
Dec 09 22:12:46 <mhz>   I would change
Dec 09 22:12:49 <nir>   we can have Duplicate Page
Dec 09 22:12:58 <mhz>   nop
Dec 09 22:13:05 <mhz>   we have Diff
Dec 09 22:13:28 <nir>   but that only if each state of the page is kept as revision
Dec 09 22:13:50 <mhz>   Business rule number X: NEVER DELETE your info
Dec 09 22:13:50 <nir>   but this does not make sense if every change is a revion
Dec 09 22:14:15 <nir>   lets say it uses a smart revisioning
Dec 09 22:14:16 <mhz>   not necesarily
Dec 09 22:14:18 <--     KevinMarks has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
Dec 09 22:14:25 <nir>   so eac complete calc is a revision
Dec 09 22:14:30 <mhz>   ok
Dec 09 22:14:40 <nir>   now the problem is what do you do with the letter
Dec 09 22:14:53 <mhz>   ?
Dec 09 22:14:58 <nir>   if its get the data from the calc page, you lost your old letter
Dec 09 22:15:09 <nir>   because its dynamic
Dec 09 22:15:22 <mhz>   ah, calc page is "dynamic"
Dec 09 22:15:28 <nir>   or - the latter could be just a new revision
Dec 09 22:15:39 <nir>   so its not dynamic
Dec 09 22:15:50 <mhz>   for me...
Dec 09 22:15:56 <nir>   you create the letter with a button
Dec 09 22:16:05 <nir>   and all revisions are kepts
Dec 09 22:16:23 <nir>   then you don't have to manage many files
Dec 09 22:16:30 <nir>   and you have all the history
Dec 09 22:17:05 <mhz>   when I have to send 5 letter til someone accepts JUST any one (even after small changes each) I have to keep those letter. So you point $
Dec 09 22:17:20 <mhz>   but,
Dec 09 22:17:22 <nir>   you have all of them with not fuss
Dec 09 22:17:55 <mhz>   you also manage ideas (copyboards) before you get to those letters
Dec 09 22:18:10 <mhz>   and also receive letters form Client.
Dec 09 22:18:12 <nir>   ideas are simple wiki page
Dec 09 22:18:34 <nir>   letters you get are another problem
Dec 09 22:18:41 <mhz>   How can we deal with all INFORMATION regarding that ONE process of getting the client signature.
Dec 09 22:18:42 <mhz>   ?
Dec 09 22:18:58 <nir>   we need to import the clients letter into the wiki
Dec 09 22:19:03 <mhz>   or ...
Dec 09 22:19:18 <mhz>   have him send us a MAIL that we get into wiki
Dec 09 22:19:33 <nir>   the wiki can read your mail :)
Dec 09 22:19:33 <mhz>   WikiMai
Dec 09 22:19:35 <mhz>   WikiMail
Dec 09 22:19:45 <mhz>   MoinMail
Dec 09 22:19:48 <nir>   ThomasWaldmann, will love that
Dec 09 22:19:53 <mhz>   GaGa
Dec 09 22:19:57 <mhz>   or gaga
Dec 09 22:20:02 <mhz>   :)
Dec 09 22:20:24 <nir>   WikiMail - never use your mail client again
Dec 09 22:20:45 <nir>   you can have RecentMail
Dec 09 22:20:47 <mhz>   one of the points of Moin.cl is to get chilean python developers to help MoinDevelopersCommunity
Dec 09 22:21:56 <nir>   I have to go to sleep
Dec 09 22:22:23 <nir>   I have to play dad in the morning
Dec 09 22:22:28 <mhz>   :D ok, won't you have iching fingers?
Dec 09 22:22:42 <mhz>   ah, yes! is she still happy?
Dec 09 22:22:44 <nir>   maybe create a wiki page about this idea
Dec 09 22:22:59 <nir>   Moin as a office suit
Dec 09 22:23:10 <mhz>   Yep! or Moin as CRM
Dec 09 22:23:22 <nir>   mail + database + word procesor + spreadsheet
Dec 09 22:23:27 <mhz>   jejee
Dec 09 22:23:36 <mhz>   and TicketSystem!!!
Dec 09 22:23:39 <nir>   and presentations of course
Dec 09 22:23:57 <mhz>   obviously
Dec 09 22:24:10 <nir>   you can create simple slide shows
Dec 09 22:24:31 <nir>   maybe we can export to flash or somthing
Dec 09 22:24:39 <mhz>   no flash!!!!
Dec 09 22:24:53 <mhz>   only Free software, please :)
Dec 09 22:24:57 <nir>   do we have any free flash like solution?
Dec 09 22:25:01 <mhz>   nop
Dec 09 22:25:03 <mhz>   :(
Dec 09 22:25:07 <mhz>   not just yet
Dec 09 22:25:18 <mhz>   there are some initiatives...
Dec 09 22:25:22 <nir>   you can use oo for that of course
Dec 09 22:25:24 <mhz>   not mature enough
Dec 09 22:25:28 <mhz>   :)
Dec 09 22:25:34 <nir>   maybe html can be used
Dec 09 22:25:37 <mhz>   yes
Dec 09 22:25:42 <mhz>   python
Dec 09 22:25:54 <nir>   yea, maybe python
Dec 09 22:25:55 <mhz>   there is a python for slides?
Dec 09 22:26:01 <mhz>   i think so
Dec 09 22:26:07 <nir>   there is a game development module
Dec 09 22:26:18 <nir>   so creating effects can be easy
Dec 09 22:26:27 <nir>   pygame
Dec 09 22:26:35 <mhz>   moinflash
Dec 09 22:26:39 <mhz>   :)
Dec 09 22:26:49 <mhz>   moinflush
Dec 09 22:26:52 <mhz>   :D
Dec 09 22:26:54 <nir>   make a wiki page about that
Dec 09 22:26:58 <mhz>   me?
Dec 09 22:27:02 <nir>   yea
Dec 09 22:27:04 <mhz>   about what?
Dec 09 22:27:13 <nir>   about MoinOffice
Dec 09 22:27:15 <mhz>   were we serious????????????
Dec 09 22:27:19 <mhz>   :D
Dec 09 22:27:19 <nir>   yea
Dec 09 22:27:23 <mhz>   I know

Comments

Discussion

To use Moin to work with Clients, we need to be able to create independent wikis very easily, in order to isolate each Client's info from another. This can be done in 2 ways, and we must compare each one's pros and cons:

If this kind of arrangement is done, we could have a general wiki for all our Clients (with our general info, procedures, manuals, etc., maybe read only), and a "private" wiki for each one of them (almost surely read/write). By default, each user will have access to only one (their) wiki without even knowing that the others even exist (except of course we, the owners/admin).

From this point of view, it could seems that the second possibility (sub-wikis) could be easier to manage and use, for us. For the Clients it will be almost the same.

Background concept

From a conceptual point of view, this idea is very close to the ideal of how a contract (or in spanish, un acuerdo) should really be done. Imagine what does it mean to write colaboratively the terms of the work arrangement and negociate to agree it's final form.

I don't know about you, but for me, this is part of how I imagine our society should be. :-) -- EduardoMercovich 2004-12-11 13:18:18

MoinMoin: MoinOfficeSuite (last edited 2007-10-29 19:11:01 by localhost)