MoinMoin: MoinMoinChat/Logs/moin-dev/2006-01-29

2006-01-29T00:47:58  <ThomasWaldmann> xorAxAx: either provide more info or assign to self
2006-01-29T00:53:40  <xorAxAx> ThomasWaldmann: argh
2006-01-29T00:54:08  <ThomasWaldmann> and give more senseful comments than "argh"
2006-01-29T00:54:29  <xorAxAx> the attachment code reads stdin, the std form code does and the xmlrpc code does
2006-01-29T00:54:42  <ThomasWaldmann> write it to the appropriate wiki page
2006-01-29T00:56:20  <xorAxAx> will do
2006-01-29T00:56:45  <xorAxAx> btw, i didnt assign it to do
2006-01-29T00:56:49  <xorAxAx> i just said that you broke it
2006-01-29T00:57:48  <xorAxAx> which is obvious (it was your "fix form code for auth" patchset)
2006-01-29T00:58:39  <ThomasWaldmann> write it to the appropriate wiki page
2006-01-29T00:59:21  <ThomasWaldmann> and if you found out something, document it instead of lazily saying that it is obvious
2006-01-29T01:00:59  <xorAxAx> the explanation for the first bug is already explained on the page andi will add info about the relationshop in a few hours or revert that "relates to"
2006-01-29T04:49:09  *** irc.freenode.net sets mode: +o ChanServ
2006-01-29T09:26:58  <xorAxAx> ThomasWaldmann: hmm, i added that "related to" info to the wrong bug
2006-01-29T09:30:51  * xorAxAx reverted the changes
2006-01-29T11:36:16  <ThomasWaldmann> http://refactor.wikiwikiweb.de/BrokenOrdereredList i fixed some other bugs meanwhile
2006-01-29T12:13:00  <ThomasWaldmann> hmm, looks like moin list markup can do more than valid html 4.01 can do.
2006-01-29T12:20:33  <ThomasWaldmann> e.g. 1.#42
2006-01-29T13:13:16  <ThomasWaldmann> http://stevarino.com/tests/reverse_ol.htm - works in ff1.5
2006-01-29T13:36:22  <ThomasWaldmann>  This is a paragraph containing the number
2006-01-29T13:36:22  <ThomasWaldmann>  1. This is the second phrase of the paragraph.
2006-01-29T13:36:33  <ThomasWaldmann> (this one is nasty)
2006-01-29T13:37:37  <ThomasWaldmann> but it just shows an irregularity of our rules.
2006-01-29T13:39:42  <DasSheep> what if you require that lists start paragraphs? they start blocks in html anyways
2006-01-29T13:40:05  <DasSheep> sorry, that's fixing single problems without looking at the whole
2006-01-29T13:40:46  <ThomasWaldmann> the irregularity is this:
2006-01-29T13:40:53  <ThomasWaldmann>  some words
2006-01-29T13:41:14  <ThomasWaldmann>  some more words that get merged into same paragraph as "some words"
2006-01-29T13:41:22  <ThomasWaldmann>  * first
2006-01-29T13:41:27  <ThomasWaldmann>  * second
2006-01-29T13:42:03  <ThomasWaldmann> so you see, making a style=none list behaves different than a style=disc list
2006-01-29T13:42:42  <DasSheep> which of the behaviors is desired?
2006-01-29T13:43:17  <ThomasWaldmann> i would like a very regular behaviour, but i am still trying to find the rules for it
2006-01-29T13:43:46  <ThomasWaldmann> we already have this:
2006-01-29T13:43:51  <ThomasWaldmann> some words
2006-01-29T13:43:59  <ThomasWaldmann> some more words that get merged into same paragraph as "some words"
2006-01-29T13:44:07  <ThomasWaldmann> (no list)
2006-01-29T13:45:18  <DasSheep> how others do it?
2006-01-29T13:45:29  <DasSheep> e.x. rest
2006-01-29T13:50:01  <ThomasWaldmann> http://six.pairlist.net/pipermail/markdown-discuss/2004-March/000205.html they are discussing similar problems
2006-01-29T13:52:17  <ThomasWaldmann>  1. some words
2006-01-29T13:52:23  <DasSheep> ThomasWaldmann: how about this
2006-01-29T13:52:29  <ThomasWaldmann>     followed by some more words.
2006-01-29T13:52:36  <DasSheep> sorry
2006-01-29T13:53:08  <ThomasWaldmann>  1. next item
2006-01-29T13:53:46  <ThomasWaldmann>     1. this would be in same p as "next item" (no list item)
2006-01-29T13:55:26  <ThomasWaldmann> the problem is still there for style= none lists, we maybe just need markup for that
2006-01-29T13:55:35  <ThomasWaldmann> like:
2006-01-29T13:55:54  <ThomasWaldmann>  - this is a
2006-01-29T13:56:04  <ThomasWaldmann>    style none list entry
2006-01-29T13:56:10  <ThomasWaldmann>  - this is
2006-01-29T13:56:15  <ThomasWaldmann>    next item
2006-01-29T13:56:48  <DasSheep> ThomasWaldmann: as for me, the current behavior is perfectly reqular and described by two simple rules:
2006-01-29T13:57:30  <DasSheep> 1. Consecutive lines are joined together into blocks (paragraphs, various lists, indeted paragraphs)
2006-01-29T13:57:46  <DasSheep> 2. Within a list, the bullet character separates list items
2006-01-29T13:58:17  <DasSheep> s/bullet character/enumaration character/ for enumareted lists
2006-01-29T13:58:55  <ThomasWaldmann> that is no complete ruleset
2006-01-29T13:59:51  <ThomasWaldmann> it doesnt address list level / indentation
2006-01-29T14:00:43  <ThomasWaldmann> and there is no "bullet char" for style=none list items
2006-01-29T14:04:14  <DasSheep> ThomasWaldmann: sorry, I implied that lines with different indentation are not consecutive
2006-01-29T14:04:42  <DasSheep> ThomasWaldmann: what are those no-bullet lists? what are they for?
2006-01-29T14:16:01  <ThomasWaldmann> for list items with no bullets :)
2006-01-29T14:16:19  <ThomasWaldmann> not sure if we really need them
2006-01-29T14:16:51  <DasSheep> maybe you could replace them with blockquotes ;)
2006-01-29T14:17:36  <ThomasWaldmann> http://refactor.wikiwikiweb.de/ListMarkupProposal
2006-01-29T14:21:06  <DasSheep> considering the use cases, I'd replace the '^   -' with '^>>>' ;)
2006-01-29T14:22:10  <DasSheep> but this will still break the existing pages
2006-01-29T14:22:23  <DasSheep> including lots of discussion pages
2006-01-29T14:23:28  <DasSheep> the "dirty" ones, which are the hardest to manage
2006-01-29T14:24:51  <ThomasWaldmann> yes, that's a problem. fixing broken markup breaks pages in broken markup style.
2006-01-29T14:25:42  <ThomasWaldmann> >>> is not regularly related to the other list markup
2006-01-29T14:25:50  <DasSheep> if you want to go for it, there should be one large change that fixes all the issues at once
2006-01-29T14:26:22  <DasSheep> so that you don't force users to retouch their pages all the time
2006-01-29T14:27:21  <ThomasWaldmann> otoh we cant change everything at the same time
2006-01-29T14:27:40  <ThomasWaldmann> Fabi: http://refactor.wikiwikiweb.de/ListMarkupProposal
2006-01-29T14:38:34  <Fabi> hmmm
2006-01-29T14:40:15  <ThomasWaldmann> reload
2006-01-29T14:43:15  <ThomasWaldmann> reload
2006-01-29T14:47:15  <Fabi> you don't say how you will treat undented text in the new markup
2006-01-29T14:48:01  <Fabi> and I don't like opening a new devel wiki
2006-01-29T14:51:05  <ThomasWaldmann> what do you mean by last sentence?
2006-01-29T14:55:49  <ThomasWaldmann> (the refactor wiki is just for experimentation, not for permanent content, if you mean that)
2006-01-29T14:56:32  <ThomasWaldmann> Hint: get email notification when this page changes, by clicking Abonnieren.
2006-01-29T14:56:37  <ThomasWaldmann> (lol)
2006-01-29T14:57:33  <DasSheep> ThomasWaldmann: in polsih translations the terms were reversed (together with the messages) in 1.3.5
2006-01-29T15:00:45  <ThomasWaldmann> ?
2006-01-29T15:00:49  * Fabi must go
2006-01-29T15:00:51  <Fabi> cu
2006-01-29T15:00:59  <ThomasWaldmann> cu
2006-01-29T15:01:36  <DasSheep> the translations for subscribe and unsubscribe were reversed...
2006-01-29T15:01:45  <DasSheep> ah, that's not it, sorry
2006-01-29T15:02:07  <ThomasWaldmann> (the quote was from FortuneCookies)
2006-01-29T15:02:31  <DasSheep> but it had GetText macro in it, probably
2006-01-29T15:04:47  <ThomasWaldmann> yeah. it just reads funny.
2006-01-29T15:05:59  <ThomasWaldmann> maybe method B is better because it is easier to manage in our code (and also for the user managing indentation levels)
2006-01-29T15:09:14  <DasSheep> I'm still not sure
2006-01-29T15:09:26  <DasSheep> what that bulletless list is for
2006-01-29T15:09:33  <DasSheep> I can see what it is used for
2006-01-29T15:09:43  <DasSheep> but what it is inteded for?
2006-01-29T15:10:27  <ThomasWaldmann> it is just a style html offers. maybe for peaceful people disliking bullets. ;)
2006-01-29T15:11:19  <DasSheep> now, with solution B, what happends when you just indent line ?
2006-01-29T15:11:29  <DasSheep> without any '-' in the beginning?
2006-01-29T15:15:22  <ThomasWaldmann> hmm, good question. maybe if the level changes, it should be the same as with "-".
2006-01-29T15:15:58  <ThomasWaldmann> the difference is just that none-type list items at the same level are possible with "-".
2006-01-29T15:16:05  <DasSheep> this way it won't broke as much
2006-01-29T15:16:11  <DasSheep> s/broke/break
2006-01-29T16:01:28  <ThomasWaldmann> seems to work
2006-01-29T16:01:41  <ThomasWaldmann> http://refactor.wikiwikiweb.de/ListMarkupProposal
2006-01-29T16:14:58  <ThomasWaldmann> if we dont find new brokenness, I think we can keep it that way
2006-01-29T16:19:08  <ThomasWaldmann> the only drawback of the first (li p p /li) fix is that you cant change list type within the same level
2006-01-29T16:19:48  <ThomasWaldmann> this usually just means to put some p of text or some hn in between the lists
2006-01-29T16:58:18  <DasSheep> ThomasWaldmann: you could change the bullet of non-bulleted lists from '-' to //
2006-01-29T16:58:24  <DasSheep> '//'
2006-01-29T16:58:36  <DasSheep> I think it's more intuitive
2006-01-29T17:02:59  <DasSheep> at least for a latex user
2006-01-29T18:05:31  <ThomasWaldmann> maybe only for them :)
2006-01-29T18:27:00  * ThomasWaldmann .oO(fscking <p>)
2006-01-29T18:53:36  <dreimark> another translator on moinmoin
2006-01-29T19:03:32  <ThomasWaldmann> that russian?
2006-01-29T19:12:08  <ThomasWaldmann> dreimark: if you have time, help testing the list stuff on:
2006-01-29T19:12:30  <ThomasWaldmann> http://refactor.wikiwikiweb.de/ListMarkupProposal (and other test pages there)
2006-01-29T19:14:51  <dreimark> ThomasWaldmann:the russian has gone to moinmaster I hope the spain one did it too
2006-01-29T19:15:24  <dreimark> I try them out and probably add some more
2006-01-29T19:19:03  <dreimark> the eating of the empty line by the gui isn't solved or worked on yet http://refactor.wikiwikiweb.de/EnumerationList
2006-01-29T19:19:35  <dreimark> the enumeration change is another thing
2006-01-29T19:28:00  <ThomasWaldmann> i worked on list nesting correctness mostly and added " -" markup for style=none lists
2006-01-29T19:31:12  <dreimark> ok
2006-01-29T19:31:26  <dreimark> could you look at http://refactor.wikiwikiweb.de/ListExample2
2006-01-29T19:33:42  <ThomasWaldmann> fixed eating of gap
2006-01-29T19:35:24  <ThomasWaldmann> dreimark: you cant change list type within a list
2006-01-29T19:35:45  <dreimark> this looks different in 1.5.1
2006-01-29T19:35:52  <ThomasWaldmann> the type=none list is basically a ul, so it continues with ul even if you do 1.
2006-01-29T19:36:05  <ThomasWaldmann> yes, because it was broken :)
2006-01-29T19:36:43  <ThomasWaldmann> the previous behaviour was to close the list and reopen a new
2006-01-29T19:37:01  <ThomasWaldmann> but that had bad side effects on li p p /li for example
2006-01-29T19:37:45  <ThomasWaldmann> the current behaviour needs some level change to switch list style
2006-01-29T19:38:02  <ThomasWaldmann> so put some text or hn or hr in between
2006-01-29T19:38:11  <dreimark> or [[BR]
2006-01-29T19:38:14  <dreimark> ]
2006-01-29T19:38:51  <ThomasWaldmann> [[NOP]] :)
2006-01-29T19:38:55  <dreimark> ListExample2 should show only enumeration no bullets all is done by 1.
2006-01-29T19:39:34  <ThomasWaldmann> no, first is a ul and that is kept
2006-01-29T19:39:53  <ThomasWaldmann> (you dont see the bullet, because it is hidden)
2006-01-29T19:40:16  <ThomasWaldmann> try with
2006-01-29T19:40:22  <ThomasWaldmann>  * bullets forever
2006-01-29T19:40:27  <ThomasWaldmann>  1. first
2006-01-29T19:40:59  <ThomasWaldmann> that can be simply considered as bad input
2006-01-29T19:41:28  <ThomasWaldmann> if you are lazy, you can exploit it with
2006-01-29T19:41:32  <ThomasWaldmann>  1. first
2006-01-29T19:41:35  <ThomasWaldmann>  * second
2006-01-29T19:41:55  <ThomasWaldmann>  - third
2006-01-29T19:42:38  <ThomasWaldmann> - will hide, though
2006-01-29T19:45:12  <dreimark> :) with [[BR]] used the gui does not eat the empty line too
2006-01-29T19:46:17  <ThomasWaldmann> it doesnt eat it without, too
2006-01-29T19:46:50  <ThomasWaldmann> the class=gap processing was just missing from the ol conversion
2006-01-29T19:47:18  <dreimark> now it goes well
2006-01-29T19:48:15  <dreimark> twice time -- gives -
2006-01-29T19:48:38  <dreimark> is this new or did I have missed the description
2006-01-29T19:48:41  <dreimark> I like it
2006-01-29T19:48:48  <dreimark>  1. Test first
2006-01-29T19:48:56  <dreimark>  -- something else
2006-01-29T19:55:38  <ThomasWaldmann> the second - is content
2006-01-29T19:56:21  <ThomasWaldmann> \s+-\s* is the regex
2006-01-29T19:59:55  <dreimark> could the  - (content)  be replaced by a bigger one to indicate it as a bullet sign
2006-01-29T20:00:57  <DasSheep> bigger minus? Oo)
2006-01-29T20:01:08  <dreimark> bigger black minus
2006-01-29T20:01:14  <DasSheep> there's the set minus, it's bigger but it's skewed
2006-01-29T20:02:30  <ThomasWaldmann> why do you want it big if it vanishes completely when rendered?
2006-01-29T20:04:21  <dreimark> see ListExample2 it is there
2006-01-29T20:05:37  <dreimark> it's content
2006-01-29T20:06:52  <dreimark> I don't want it misunderstanding
2006-01-29T20:10:19  <dreimark> in some of our wiki's people do use - as bullet sign
2006-01-29T20:12:09  <dreimark> the indenting space is sometimes to big
2006-01-29T20:13:57  <dreimark> could you use instead of - a ~ or . for the markup or something else
2006-01-29T20:15:03  <ThomasWaldmann> yes. esp. if someone uses a -- 127.0.0.1 [[DateTime(2006-01-31T22:56:24Z)]] at the wrong place, it gets misinterpreted
2006-01-29T20:20:23  <ThomasWaldmann> maybe the . is a good idea
2006-01-29T20:21:12  <dreimark> if such a sign should be helpful to get visible the levels shouldn't it work for more than the first one
2006-01-29T20:21:31  <dreimark> something like ...
2006-01-29T20:21:36  <dreimark> or ....
2006-01-29T20:22:02  <ThomasWaldmann> that doesnt match moins other behaviour
2006-01-29T20:22:18  <dreimark> ok
2006-01-29T20:27:22  <dreimark> if you use :: the - isn't removed
2006-01-29T20:27:31  <dreimark>  1. Test first
2006-01-29T20:27:34  <dreimark>   - important::
2006-01-29T20:28:09  <DasSheep> :: does something completely different ;)
2006-01-29T20:30:12  <ThomasWaldmann> ok, . now
2006-01-29T20:30:35  <dreimark> DasSheep: I just try out what happens
2006-01-29T20:30:55  <ThomasWaldmann> btw, that - would have been EVIL.
2006-01-29T20:31:08  <ThomasWaldmann> just image measurements:
2006-01-29T20:31:12  <ThomasWaldmann>  -32.0
2006-01-29T20:31:16  <ThomasWaldmann>  12.2
2006-01-29T20:45:25  <DasSheep> ThomasWaldmann: they have this problem with YAML
2006-01-29T20:52:03  <ThomasWaldmann> "-" eaten?
2006-01-29T20:52:34  <DasSheep> yeah, at beast ambigious, they use '-' for lists
2006-01-29T20:52:41  <DasSheep> s/beast/best
2006-01-29T20:53:22  <dreimark> YAML?
2006-01-29T20:53:53  <DasSheep> something better suited for things XML isn't suited to do, but is used
2006-01-29T20:58:32  <dreimark> ListExample3 shows it does matter [[BR]] not at beginning on new line
2006-01-29T21:03:50  <dreimark> ListExample4 shows a enumeration trick my be not wanted
2006-01-29T21:07:22  <dreimark> may
2006-01-29T21:10:36  <ThomasWaldmann> 3 is expected
2006-01-29T21:11:04  <ThomasWaldmann> ehrm, ListExample4 is expected
2006-01-29T21:11:39  <ThomasWaldmann> ehrm, ListExample3 is expected, too
2006-01-29T21:13:49  <dreimark>  1. second
2006-01-29T21:13:53  <dreimark>   . text
2006-01-29T21:14:33  <dreimark> switchs to bullets
2006-01-29T21:15:41  <dreimark> if there is one blank to much before .
2006-01-29T21:16:53  <dreimark> ListExample5
2006-01-29T21:22:52  <ThomasWaldmann> yeah, this is also expected.
2006-01-29T21:23:28  <ThomasWaldmann> you have to be precise with indentation (but you can use more than one blank per level iirc)
2006-01-29T21:24:35  <DasSheep> I played with using various bullet characters and changing them *or* indentation to change level
2006-01-29T21:25:42  <DasSheep> http://helios.wmid.amu.edu.pl/~sheep/cgi-bin/index.cgi/SimpleParser_markup#head-e722ceb1e17c754e631a6ff3fe1dfe36d8b42f6b
2006-01-29T21:26:51  <DasSheep> the implementation's side effect is that decreasing identation will actually add a level if this indentation wasn't used before
2006-01-29T21:26:58  <dreimark> if I don't use the . and many blanks it does not change to bullets
2006-01-29T21:30:52  <dreimark> DasSheep:can I use = = for headings with your parser too or what is the reason for changing to * *
2006-01-29T21:32:29  <ThomasWaldmann> as i said: . is a bullet list with invisible bullets
2006-01-29T21:37:18  <dreimark> while it could be used with a enumeration list too it could be a bit confusing
2006-01-29T21:37:25  <dreimark> I would like more to set
2006-01-29T21:37:31  <dreimark>  1. something
2006-01-29T21:37:40  <dreimark>  . description
2006-01-29T21:37:44  <dreimark> instead of now
2006-01-29T21:38:10  <dreimark>  1. something[[BR]]
2006-01-29T21:38:17  <dreimark>  description
2006-01-29T21:38:30  <dreimark> it does avoid this [[BR]]
2006-01-29T21:39:01  <dreimark> could it be changed if used with a enumaeration list that it is
2006-01-29T21:39:13  <ThomasWaldmann>  1. something
2006-01-29T21:39:16  <ThomasWaldmann> 
2006-01-29T21:39:29  <ThomasWaldmann>   . description
2006-01-29T21:41:08  <dreimark> true it's easier to have that only for bullets they don't enumerate to the next number
2006-01-29T21:42:06  <ThomasWaldmann> as usual, an empty line makes a new paragraph
2006-01-29T21:42:41  <ThomasWaldmann> http://refactor.wikiwikiweb.de/BrokenOrdereredList see there
2006-01-29T21:44:56  <ThomasWaldmann> just an empty line instead your BR
2006-01-29T21:45:05  <dreimark> yeah
2006-01-29T21:45:34  <dreimark> :)
2006-01-29T21:45:38  <ThomasWaldmann> == same behaviour as on top level, outside of lists
2006-01-29T21:48:46  <dreimark> another questions is it or could it be possible to choose the bullet sign by
2006-01-29T21:49:06  <dreimark> a #1 first level bullet sign used
2006-01-29T21:49:39  <dreimark> so that there could be user wanted bullet signs used
2006-01-29T21:49:58  * ThomasWaldmann looks ...
2006-01-29T21:51:54  <ThomasWaldmann> no, it's only supported for ol style and start
2006-01-29T21:52:31  <ThomasWaldmann> and there it is a big problem with (x)html strict compatibility anyway 8(
2006-01-29T21:55:02  <dreimark> ok
2006-01-29T21:56:23  <DasSheep> ThomasWaldmann: that's not a big problem, use the classes for that
2006-01-29T21:56:30  <DasSheep> and style
2006-01-29T21:56:45  <DasSheep> or style directly in th tags (would be probably more sane)
2006-01-29T21:57:22  <DasSheep> dreimark: no particular reason, just wanted to make it consistent with emphasis
2006-01-29T21:58:22  <DasSheep> dreimark: like you know, amphasises text left alone on the line makes a heading
2006-01-29T21:59:33  <ThomasWaldmann> DasSheep: that's not very flexible
2006-01-29T22:00:00  <ThomasWaldmann> no big issue for style, but for start and value attrs
2006-01-29T22:02:09  <DasSheep> not much experience with numbered lists
2006-01-29T22:02:18  <DasSheep> somehow they don't fit html ;)
2006-01-29T22:11:30  <dreimark> gn