MoinMoin: MoinMoinChat/Logs/moin-dev/2008-04-07

2008-04-07T00:00:40  <TheSheep> on the plus side: 1) minimizes external deps, 2) immunizes against api changes in 3rd party packages
2008-04-07T00:01:12  <zenhase> yeah
2008-04-07T00:01:27  <TheSheep> on the minus side 1) makes the bugs in these packages stay longer, 2) makes it hard to update when there were api changes after all
2008-04-07T00:02:14  <zenhase> i never saw external deps as a real problem
2008-04-07T00:02:24  <TheSheep> zenhase: you use linux?
2008-04-07T00:02:30  <zenhase> i do
2008-04-07T00:02:35  <zenhase> or freebsd at home
2008-04-07T00:02:40  <TheSheep> zenhase: go and ask a windows user
2008-04-07T00:02:44  <zenhase> yeah
2008-04-07T00:02:55  <TheSheep> zenhase: or really any system without a decent package management
2008-04-07T00:03:04  <zenhase> but then, for windows-users it's a bigger problem all over
2008-04-07T00:03:24  <zenhase> you have to depend on active-python or sth. like that
2008-04-07T00:03:32  <zenhase> ot you have to bundle python
2008-04-07T00:03:34  <zenhase> or
2008-04-07T00:03:36  <TheSheep> zenhase: there is also this psychological effect of installing additional software
2008-04-07T00:03:45  <zenhase> so you build a complete package for win anyways
2008-04-07T00:05:18  <zenhase> and linux/bsd platforms have either decent package management OR decent admins
2008-04-07T00:05:40  <TheSheep> the idea of a system administering itself is just plain scary :)
2008-04-07T00:05:41  <zenhase> at least that is what i would expect :)
2008-04-07T00:05:57  <zenhase> yeah it is, therefore you trust your package-management
2008-04-07T00:06:11  <TheSheep> or roll your own
2008-04-07T00:06:40  <zenhase> yeah, but this requires that you yourself are adept at what you are doing
2008-04-07T00:07:18  <zenhase> meaning you know about packages and their dependencies ;)
2008-04-07T00:07:54  <zenhase> .oO( repeat 100 times: LSF is not really a viable server distribution )
2008-04-07T00:08:03  <grzywacz> LFS?
2008-04-07T00:08:05  <TheSheep> LFS?
2008-04-07T00:08:08  <grzywacz> :D
2008-04-07T00:08:08  <zenhase> yeah :)
2008-04-07T00:08:10  <zenhase> typo
2008-04-07T00:08:18  <xorAxAx> zenhase: try lsf.upb.de, even worse than lfs
2008-04-07T00:08:27  <TheSheep> zenhase: by neigbour is an old slack-er
2008-04-07T00:08:45  <zenhase> xorAxAx: hrhr, i sense self-irony
2008-04-07T00:09:10  <zenhase> TheSheep: well, do you know any young slack-ers? ;P
2008-04-07T00:09:39  <TheSheep> zenhase: he is about my age, nad I *am* young, forever!
2008-04-07T00:10:00  <TheSheep> kids these days
2008-04-07T00:10:11  <TheSheep> really
2008-04-07T00:10:21  <grzywacz> Hm. Pyxmpp really shouldn't get "wasted". I like the way this lib is coded.
2008-04-07T00:10:28  <zenhase> your sneaky 80ies reference tells a different story about 'being young' :D
2008-04-07T00:10:50  <TheSheep> zenhase: it's the heart that matters!
2008-04-07T00:10:56  <zenhase> TheSheep: i know
2008-04-07T00:11:13  <zenhase> i want to comment on the other pro-argument
2008-04-07T00:11:22  <TheSheep> oh, wow! alexandria found my book by isbn!
2008-04-07T00:11:25  <zenhase> 'immunizing against api changes'
2008-04-07T00:12:18  <TheSheep> omg, it even has a support for barcode scanner!
2008-04-07T00:12:33  <TheSheep> beauty!
2008-04-07T00:12:43  <zenhase> overkill :)
2008-04-07T00:12:52  <TheSheep> zenhase: no, why?
2008-04-07T00:13:01  <zenhase> oh
2008-04-07T00:13:03  <zenhase> sorry
2008-04-07T00:13:10  <zenhase> missed your preceding sentence
2008-04-07T00:13:10  <ThomasWaldmann> dreimark: i removed your (wrong) comment from the hierarchic acl bug page
2008-04-07T00:13:17  <zenhase> and thought you were commenting on pyxmmp
2008-04-07T00:13:20  <TheSheep> zenhase: you borrow one for a couple of days and input all your books
2008-04-07T00:13:21  <zenhase> pyxmpp
2008-04-07T00:13:31  <TheSheep> zenhase: ah, sorry for my offtopicness
2008-04-07T00:13:38  <zenhase> no, sorry for my blindness
2008-04-07T00:13:44  <zenhase> :)
2008-04-07T00:14:55  <zenhase> well, the api-changes thing ... i think popular libs (and often those are the ones you would use because of support) are quite api-stable
2008-04-07T00:15:05  <zenhase> they have to, because of dedication to their userbase
2008-04-07T00:15:27  <zenhase> the same way, moin doesn't completely change for it's users from one release to another
2008-04-07T00:16:29  <zenhase> being afraid of api changes in 3rd party libraries in an opensource community is in my opinion ... unfair towards the fellow community members
2008-04-07T00:16:46  <zenhase> it's like you don't believe in them :o
2008-04-07T00:17:37  <TheSheep> programming is not an acto of faith :)
2008-04-07T00:17:51  <zenhase> no it isn't
2008-04-07T00:17:51  <TheSheep> on the other hand, maybe it is
2008-04-07T00:18:01  <TheSheep> come to think of it
2008-04-07T00:18:01  <zenhase> but community is :)
2008-04-07T00:18:49  <TheSheep> fair enough
2008-04-07T00:18:50  <zenhase> our users trust us about Moin ... why shouldn't we trust our 3rd party lib developers
2008-04-07T00:19:40  <zenhase> also since it's opensource, there is discussion on mailing lists and influence you can take as a major benefitor of a certain project
2008-04-07T00:19:56  <zenhase> at least that is the way i understand open source :)
2008-04-07T00:20:09  <zenhase> what do you think about it?
2008-04-07T00:20:34  <TheSheep> well, I'm taking all what ESR and co. say with a grain of salt
2008-04-07T00:20:46  <zenhase> oh, i don't like ESR
2008-04-07T00:20:53  <TheSheep> who does :)
2008-04-07T00:21:11  <zenhase> actually i never really read his stuff
2008-04-07T00:21:13  <TheSheep> zenhase: personally I'm more into free software than opensource
2008-04-07T00:21:15  <zenhase> at least not detailled
2008-04-07T00:21:21  <zenhase> and same holds for stallman
2008-04-07T00:21:36  <zenhase> i am just talking from my personal attitude i developed
2008-04-07T00:21:46  <zenhase> well, call it free :)
2008-04-07T00:22:01  <zenhase> actually free sounds better to me too
2008-04-07T00:22:15  <TheSheep> zenhase: it's not about names, it's about underlying philosophy
2008-04-07T00:22:42  <zenhase> TheSheep: you mean as in GPL vs BSD?
2008-04-07T00:22:42  <TheSheep> zenhase: opensource still assumes that software is something you can buy and sell
2008-04-07T00:22:52  <zenhase> hmm ok
2008-04-07T00:23:09  <TheSheep> a product
2008-04-07T00:23:27  <grzywacz> Well, you can buy/sell free software as well ;)
2008-04-07T00:23:34  <zenhase> yeah
2008-04-07T00:23:46  <grzywacz> I think I've seen Wesnoth on ebay once or twice. :p
2008-04-07T00:23:58  <grzywacz> Or maybe on its polish equivalent.
2008-04-07T00:24:05  <TheSheep> grzywacz: but buying it is not the only way to get it
2008-04-07T00:24:18  <grzywacz> sure
2008-04-07T00:24:21  <zenhase> :)
2008-04-07T00:24:58  <TheSheep> grzywacz: and most important, there is no "owner"
2008-04-07T00:25:17  <TheSheep> grzywacz: it's like you can buy brooklyn bridge too ;)
2008-04-07T00:25:24  <zenhase> TheSheep: well, i think because of nomenclature some sentences above, we got off in the wrong direction :)
2008-04-07T00:25:42  <TheSheep> zenhase: ok, pop
2008-04-07T00:25:44  <zenhase> TheSheep: pretend i didn't say 'opensource' but was talking about free software communities
2008-04-07T00:26:13  <TheSheep> communes, hehe
2008-04-07T00:26:26  <zenhase> :P
2008-04-07T00:42:19  <grzywacz> night
2008-04-07T00:45:04  <ThomasWaldmann> a new soc app
2008-04-07T00:49:09  <zenhase> well, the last day ;)
2008-04-07T00:57:01  <ThomasWaldmann> (of course it is totally unclear what he exactly wants to do)
2008-04-07T00:57:51  <xorAxAx> ooold :)
2008-04-07T00:58:55  <TheSheep> a pole
2008-04-07T01:00:22  <xorAxAx> he is studying project management
2008-04-07T01:00:34  <TheSheep> j2ee :D
2008-04-07T01:00:58  <xorAxAx> "I will design and implement scalable solution to authenticate and authorize users for OLAP application."
2008-04-07T01:01:01  <xorAxAx> ROTFL
2008-04-07T01:01:07  <xorAxAx> well, sounds like a mass application
2008-04-07T01:01:50  <TheSheep> 'an application. any application.'
2008-04-07T01:02:10  * zenhase googles 'OLAP'
2008-04-07T01:02:31  <xorAxAx> TheSheep: i was told that "any" is usually followed by a noun in its plural form
2008-04-07T01:02:33  <zenhase> 'Online Analytical Processing, or OLAP (IPA: /ˈoʊlæp/), is an approach to quickly provide answers to analytical queries that are multi-dimensional in nature.'
2008-04-07T01:02:37  <xorAxAx> TheSheep: do you know when its not?
2008-04-07T01:02:39  <xorAxAx> zenhase: yep
2008-04-07T01:02:43  <zenhase> o_O
2008-04-07T01:04:44  <TheSheep> ThomasWaldmann: http://www.sketchies-comic.com/index.php?p=13
2008-04-07T01:05:10  <TheSheep> (loosely related first frame)
2008-04-07T01:15:32  <ThomasWaldmann> "VR Study Says 40% of Us Are Paranoid" (from /. :)
2008-04-07T01:16:08  <TheSheep> us or US?
2008-04-07T01:17:09  <TheSheep> for instance, the main server at my unni just died
2008-04-07T01:17:20  <TheSheep> uni*
2008-04-07T01:17:31  <TheSheep> because of wird lvm trouble
2008-04-07T01:18:32  <ThomasWaldmann> TheSheep: hehe :)
2008-04-07T01:18:50  <ThomasWaldmann> (it was from UK, not from US :)
2008-04-07T01:19:17  <TheSheep> we live in InterestingTimes(tm)
2008-04-07T01:19:21  <Nyad> Hello. I am a GSoC student
2008-04-07T01:19:31  <TheSheep> hi Nyad
2008-04-07T01:19:52  <Nyad> just heard about your project, its written in python but what libs would I need to know to join?
2008-04-07T01:20:07  <Nyad> are you doing this through the PSF?
2008-04-07T01:20:11  <ThomasWaldmann> stdlib :)
2008-04-07T01:20:14  <TheSheep> Nyad: mostly depends on what you want to do with it
2008-04-07T01:21:25  <TheSheep> Nyad: no, as far as I know the Moin project is not related to PSF
2008-04-07T01:21:40  <Nyad> ok great
2008-04-07T01:23:08  <Nyad> ThomasWaldmann: but thats just string handling then
2008-04-07T01:23:15  <ThomasWaldmann> Nyad: of course it helps if you are familiar with moin's code (also depends a bit on what you want to do)
2008-04-07T01:23:38  <ThomasWaldmann> Nyad: no, we use more from stdlib than string handling
2008-04-07T01:24:02  <Nyad> yeah, well I just heard about it and its 1:23am so I won't be on for much longer, but I will have a more thorough look at it
2008-04-07T01:24:16  <TheSheep> python stdlib is a *little* bit more than just string handling, although if you view computers as Turing machines then all they really can do is just string handling...
2008-04-07T01:24:55  <ThomasWaldmann> it's all bit moving what we do :P
2008-04-07T01:25:02  <Nyad> like in asm?
2008-04-07T01:26:50  <Nyad> that would be awesome, I <3 asm
2008-04-07T01:28:01  <TheSheep> Nyad: nope, I was just getting philosophical, sorry
2008-04-07T01:28:10  <Nyad> ok
2008-04-07T01:28:14  <TheSheep> Nyad: it's all high level python
2008-04-07T01:28:26  <TheSheep> not even sockets
2008-04-07T01:28:47  <Nyad> well I just looked at http://moinmo.in/GoogleSoc2008/ and since I've come in so late I don't think you guys have much chance of picking me
2008-04-07T01:29:22  <TheSheep> Nyad: it all depends on what you want to do and how well you describe it :)
2008-04-07T01:29:50  <TheSheep> Nyad: but getting familiar with the code would be appreciated
2008-04-07T01:34:40  <Nyad> hm just looked at ideas page and my basic xhtml and css isn't useful, I could maybe do the UI improvements though, but with what lib are they done in?
2008-04-07T01:36:29  <ThomasWaldmann> we dont use a templating engine in case you mean that
2008-04-07T01:37:31  * gizmo got disconnected
2008-04-07T01:37:38  <Nyad> I mean like GTK, wxPython etc
2008-04-07T01:37:52  <ThomasWaldmann> moin is a web app
2008-04-07T01:38:44  <Nyad> hmm, this will be a very good learning experience for me then
2008-04-07T01:39:12  <Nyad> but by saying that it implies I know very little about web development. which is true. But I am a good coder
2008-04-07T01:41:14  <TheSheep> Nyad: a good first step to get a feel of the project would be to download, install and try it, a second step would be to browse the sources
2008-04-07T01:42:06  <Nyad> ok I shall. goodnight
2008-04-07T01:42:18  <TheSheep> good night and good luck
2008-04-07T01:42:55  * TheSheep is astonished
2008-04-07T01:43:45  <damjan> :)
2008-04-07T01:48:09  <CIA-47> Thomas Waldmann <tw AT waldmann-edv DOT de> default * 3488:f3c50edd219c 1.7/MoinMoin/theme/__init__.py: theme showversion: remove year, add 'et al.'
2008-04-07T02:29:23  <zenhase> :)
2008-04-07T03:10:42  <gizmach> gn
2008-04-07T08:45:41  <dreimark> moin
2008-04-07T08:45:58  <gizmach> dreimark: moin and by
2008-04-07T08:45:59  <gizmach> nye
2008-04-07T08:46:02  <gizmach> bye
2008-04-07T08:46:25  <dreimark> gizmach: bye have a nice day
2008-04-07T08:53:19  <ThomasWaldmann> moin
2008-04-07T09:01:23  <dreimark> 3 new applications
2008-04-07T09:02:11  <CIA-47> Thomas Waldmann <tw AT waldmann-edv DOT de> default * 3489:a3177f8745f9 1.7/wiki/config/more_samples/ (5 files): more config snippets
2008-04-07T09:05:45  <ThomasWaldmann> dreimark: 2 of them look rather like 1
2008-04-07T09:10:23  <dreimark> duplicate
2008-04-07T09:19:48  <ThomasWaldmann> that flare stuff looks nice, but depends on flash player
2008-04-07T09:39:36  <dreimark> flot is nice too http://people.iola.dk/olau/flot/examples/graph-types.html
2008-04-07T10:55:26  <xorAxAx> currently we are at 23+1 :)
2008-04-07T10:56:57  <dreimark> Hi Alexander http://www.gs-enduro.de/html/navigation/karte.htm
2008-04-07T10:58:23  <dreimark> xorAxAx:
2008-04-07T11:03:47  <xorAxAx> cool
2008-04-07T11:11:58  <dreimark> xorAxAx: do you have to time to check the acl_hierarchic bug
2008-04-07T11:12:02  <dreimark> http://moinmo.in/MoinMoinBugs/AclHierarchicPageAclSupercededByAclRightsAfter
2008-04-07T11:12:23  <dreimark> seems that test is missing
2008-04-07T12:26:27  <CIA-47> Thomas Waldmann <tw AT waldmann-edv DOT de> default * 3490:af3460a4cb79 1.7/MoinMoin/ (7 files in 4 dirs): fix some typos in messages / comments
2008-04-07T13:41:05  <zenhase> moin ... yeah, university killed his routers it seems
2008-04-07T13:41:27  <zenhase> no internet at the dorm or anywhere on campus right now :/
2008-04-07T13:46:33  <dreimark> zenhase: on many places it is broken currently
2008-04-07T15:05:07  <johill> ThomasWaldmann: sorry, not enough backlog, what did you want?
2008-04-07T15:51:55  <dreimark> johill: the session code is broken with http_auth
2008-04-07T15:52:09  <dreimark> if you do have two users and do use one browser
2008-04-07T15:52:18  <dreimark> the second user does not get a new session
2008-04-07T15:52:33  <johill> 1.6 or 1.7?
2008-04-07T15:52:37  <dreimark> 1.7
2008-04-07T15:52:46  <johill> odd
2008-04-07T15:52:48  <dreimark> he gets the session of the previous user
2008-04-07T15:53:21  <johill> what exactly did you do?
2008-04-07T15:53:56  <ThomasWaldmann> johill: i fixed the session stuff in 1.6 recently (was very broken for everything except moin_login), but the session code in 1.7 is very different.
2008-04-07T15:54:35  <johill> yes, I know, I just don't know what could go wrong
2008-04-07T15:54:39  <johill> what exactly did you do to fix it in 1.6?
2008-04-07T15:55:14  <ThomasWaldmann> i guess that fix does not apply for 1.7. it depended on login=true and that is never the case for http auth.
2008-04-07T15:55:50  <dreimark> auth = [HTTPAuth()]
2008-04-07T15:55:54  <johill> yeah still trying to figure out what could be it
2008-04-07T15:56:21  <dreimark> if you have one user and two browsers you get two sessions
2008-04-07T15:56:43  <dreimark> http://moinmo.in/MoinMoinChat/Logs/moin-dev/2008-04-05
2008-04-07T15:56:55  <ThomasWaldmann> johill: (17:07) < ThomasWal> johill: btw, userprefs_disabled sorts better than disabled_userprefs
2008-04-07T15:57:08  <ThomasWaldmann> (i already fixed that)
2008-04-07T15:57:15  <dreimark> 2008-04-05T17:58:22
2008-04-07T15:57:18  <johill> ThomasWaldmann: ok
2008-04-07T15:57:49  <johill> dreimark: max stored secrets was for the secret cookie workaround in 1.6
2008-04-07T15:57:59  <ThomasWaldmann> johill: it would be nice if you look at the wiki/config/more_samples/ snippets and maybe add some more
2008-04-07T15:58:10  <johill> 1.7 no longer has a cookie secret since it just uses the session ID
2008-04-07T15:58:38  <dreimark> johill: ok, but how much session files can we get in that folder
2008-04-07T15:58:45  <johill> ThomasWaldmann: I can add a few I used for testing, but those are pretty much like the ones I put onto HelpOnAuthentication
2008-04-07T15:58:57  <johill> dreimark: pretty much unlimited, except of course they'll be expired
2008-04-07T16:00:44  <dreimark> bbl
2008-04-07T16:01:46  <ThomasWaldmann> johill: I also stumbled over cookie_lifetime vs. anonymous_session_lifetime. For consistency one of them should be renamed, but I guess it is too late, because we have that in 1.6 already, right?
2008-04-07T16:01:48  <johill> I still haven't understood when you get the same session again
2008-04-07T16:02:04  <johill> hah
2008-04-07T16:02:19  <johill> actually, it was anonymous_cookie_lifetime at one point but that doesn't really describe what it is
2008-04-07T16:02:40  <johill> in previous moin versions (< 1.6) you'd have cookie lifetime and that determined when you were logged in
2008-04-07T16:02:48  <johill> now, though, it's all in teh session
2008-04-07T16:06:24  <ThomasWaldmann> (and I will add a default for a_s_l to DefaultConfig class later, so it doesn't need hasattr magic)
2008-04-07T16:06:59  <johill> yeah, that's probably better
2008-04-07T16:18:38  <ThomasWaldmann> btw, we should release a 1.7 beta soon, please help preparing that :)
2008-04-07T16:26:33  <ThomasWaldmann> (e.g. on master17.moinmo.in, there is lots to review and to fix)
2008-04-07T16:27:25  <johill> yeah, I'd love to do more but right now I'm pretty stretched, next linux version is coming up and there are still quite a few things to fix so we don't get hurt because we introduced regressions :)
2008-04-07T17:28:44  <dreimark> johill: using switch user does not change the page trail
2008-04-07T17:53:28  <ThomasWaldmann> dreimark: btw, auth and session stuff now uses the logging framework and there is a ready to use wiki/config/logging/.... auth debug config for it (add it to moin.py for debugging)
2008-04-07T17:53:49  <ThomasWaldmann> bbl
2008-04-07T18:00:34  <dennda> boy
2008-04-07T18:00:46  <dennda> Just discovered pdb
2008-04-07T18:17:25  <kikka> hey
2008-04-07T19:16:22  <dreimark> ThomasWaldmann: let's see what it tells, will check it in some hours
2008-04-07T19:17:36  * dreimark has updated the last Python-2.3.X server
2008-04-07T19:25:14  <dreimark> bbl
2008-04-07T19:48:20  <gizmach> moin
2008-04-07T20:02:25  <ThomasWaldmann> moin
2008-04-07T20:16:29  <ThomasWaldmann> grzywacz: if you have some time, the (debug) logging in the jabber parts could use the logging framework directly (in 1.7, as other parts of moin do already)
2008-04-07T20:18:30  <grzywacz> ThomasWaldmann, a pointer to sources please :)
2008-04-07T20:19:20  <ThomasWaldmann> it's almost everywhere :)
2008-04-07T20:19:44  <grzywacz> k...
2008-04-07T20:19:56  <ThomasWaldmann> http://hg.moinmo.in/moin/1.7/file/af3460a4cb79/MoinMoin/session.py e.g. there
2008-04-07T20:20:01  <grzywacz> k
2008-04-07T20:20:13  <ThomasWaldmann>        16 from MoinMoin import log
2008-04-07T20:20:13  <ThomasWaldmann>        17 logging = log.getLogger(__name__)
2008-04-07T20:20:39  <ThomasWaldmann> and then just call logging.debug("foo"), logging.info("bar")
2008-04-07T20:20:41  <grzywacz> Does it depend heavily on moin configuration or something like that?
2008-04-07T20:20:49  <grzywacz> Mind that the bot may run on a separate machine.
2008-04-07T20:21:12  <ThomasWaldmann> for the parts running withing moin, this is all you need
2008-04-07T20:21:33  <ThomasWaldmann> for the bot, have a look at MoinMoin/log.py and moin.py
2008-04-07T20:22:14  <ThomasWaldmann> (it uses the stdlib logging module)
2008-04-07T20:28:56  <ThomasWaldmann> grzywacz: btw, you don't need to include hints to the MODULE or line number from where you do the logging call
2008-04-07T20:29:17  <ThomasWaldmann> those will be added automatically (lineno optionally)
2008-04-07T20:33:27  * ThomasWaldmann launches eclipse for debugging :)
2008-04-07T20:38:05  <ThomasWaldmann>  6332 tw        18   0  481m 160m  25m S  0.0 16.0   0:44.44 java
2008-04-07T20:58:33  <zenhase> 5h to go?
2008-04-07T20:58:44  <zenhase> or was it 3h?
2008-04-07T20:59:41  <zenhase> actually i don't know why i am excited, it's only the application deadline, not the final decision deadline :)
2008-04-07T21:03:53  <gizmach> zenhase: what will be few hours before final decision deadline? ;)
2008-04-07T21:05:32  * gizmach was on a great speach "Web Scale Computing" by Mike Culver. 
2008-04-07T21:08:17  <zenhase> gizmach: i will die of a heart attack?
2008-04-07T21:10:06  <gizmach> zenhase: hope not :)
2008-04-07T21:11:30  <xorAxAx> zenhase: 5h, one malus point for asking tz questions :-)
2008-04-07T21:11:46  <gizmach> xorAxAx: ur evil :)
2008-04-07T21:11:51  <xorAxAx> gizmach: hehe :-)
2008-04-07T21:11:59  <xorAxAx> and not always serious
2008-04-07T21:12:26  <gizmach> xorAxAx: :) I wrote a smile too :)
2008-04-07T21:13:28  <gizmach> but it's funn I think for what else will you give minus points (maybe for this)
2008-04-07T21:20:19  * zenhase is rather sad right now
2008-04-07T21:20:35  <zenhase> this country is getting worser every day :/
2008-04-07T21:21:00  <zenhase> for the ppl able to read german here: http://www.golem.de/0804/58850.html
2008-04-07T21:42:01  <xorAxAx> dreimark: have you read the mail wrt ghop tshirts?
2008-04-07T22:56:45  <xorAxAx> 24+1
2008-04-07T23:17:24  <stargaming> I'm interested -- which mail?
2008-04-07T23:19:43  <xorAxAx> stargaming: do you mean my question?
2008-04-07T23:19:51  <stargaming> yep
2008-04-07T23:19:59  <xorAxAx> it was unrelated to students :)
2008-04-07T23:21:08  <stargaming> I see, thanks. *vanishes again*
2008-04-07T23:21:38  * gizmach wishes gn to all :)
2008-04-07T23:22:37  <zenhase> gn8 gizmach
2008-04-07T23:22:39  <xorAxAx> gn gizmach
2008-04-07T23:22:50  <zenhase> hmm
2008-04-07T23:23:13  <zenhase> night is still young to me, day began at 11:30 o_O
2008-04-07T23:23:29  <zenhase> let's see what i can still accomplish
2008-04-07T23:25:42  <gizmach> zenhase: I will tell you that I hate u but I will have only few hours of sleepinga and then back to learning :)
2008-04-07T23:26:07  <gizmach> zenhase: that I hate u was a joke,I'm only yellous
2008-04-07T23:26:13  * gizmach not here