MoinMoin: MoinMoinChat/Logs/moin-dev/2009-04-13

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2009-04-13T11:50:33  <dreimark> do we have somewhere an overview page which translat
2009-04-13T11:50:59  <dreimark> ed page is for example RecentChanges in any of the other langs?
2009-04-13T11:51:20  <dreimark> (likly for all system pages)
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2009-04-13T12:02:23  <dreimark> looks like not i think I write a macro or script for that. that should help to list state of translasions for system pages on master19
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2009-04-13T12:33:45  <ThomasWaldmann> just search for master-page:RecentChanges
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2009-04-13T12:50:11  <dreimark> bbl
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2009-04-13T14:10:05  <CIA-36> Thomas Waldmann <tw AT waldmann-edv DOT de> default * 3861:903831e9eb77 1.7/wiki/config/more_samples/ldap_wikiconfig_snippet: ldap_login: use None as default value for ssl certs/keys (updated config/more_samples/ file)
2009-04-13T14:10:56  <CIA-36> Thomas Waldmann <tw AT waldmann-edv DOT de> default * 4314:903831e9eb77 1.8/wiki/config/more_samples/ldap_wikiconfig_snippet: ldap_login: use None as default value for ssl certs/keys (updated config/more_samples/ file)
2009-04-13T14:10:59  <CIA-36> Thomas Waldmann <tw AT waldmann-edv DOT de> default * 4315:58b18877d6ac 1.8/wiki/config/more_samples/ldap_wikiconfig_snippet: merged moin/1.7
2009-04-13T14:13:03  <CIA-36> Thomas Waldmann <tw AT waldmann-edv DOT de> default * 4679:903831e9eb77 1.9/wiki/config/more_samples/ldap_wikiconfig_snippet: ldap_login: use None as default value for ssl certs/keys (updated config/more_samples/ file)
2009-04-13T14:13:05  <CIA-36> Thomas Waldmann <tw AT waldmann-edv DOT de> default * 4680:58b18877d6ac 1.9/wiki/config/more_samples/ldap_wikiconfig_snippet: merged moin/1.7
2009-04-13T14:13:06  <CIA-36> Thomas Waldmann <tw AT waldmann-edv DOT de> default * 4681:b94ed1321130 1.9/wiki/config/more_samples/ldap_wikiconfig_snippet: merged moin/1.8
2009-04-13T15:42:02  <dreimark> re
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2009-04-13T19:24:28  <dreimark> btw. that fellow idea of twitter is quite nice. in MM that would mean follow the pagetrail of your friends
2009-04-13T19:24:44  <dreimark> (dependend of acls)
2009-04-13T19:25:11  <TheSheep> .oO( stabilization )
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2009-04-13T19:52:48  * dreimark has written a new macro which extracts Pages mentioned in the po file 
2009-04-13T19:52:52  <dreimark> http://moinmo.in/ReimarBauer?action=AttachFile&do=view&target=SystemPages.png
2009-04-13T19:53:49  <dreimark> Do we have more than those system pages ?
2009-04-13T19:56:20  <dreimark> I think at least those should be well translated (if possible)
2009-04-13T19:59:31  <TheSheep> would it be possible to correct some of the polish system page names?
2009-04-13T20:00:02  <dreimark> needs to be corrected in the po file and on masterXX
2009-04-13T20:00:19  <TheSheep> they are not wrong per se, just awkward
2009-04-13T20:02:27  <ThomasWaldmann> TheSheep: that's no problem, it just needs to stay consistent (MoinI18n/pl, SystemPagesInPolishGroup, pages)
2009-04-13T20:14:10  <dreimark> TheSheep: polski behaves broken in 1.8
2009-04-13T20:15:41  <TheSheep> dreimark: broken is very vague
2009-04-13T20:15:55  <dreimark> in 1.9 it works
2009-04-13T20:15:58  * TheSheep never used other than english
2009-04-13T20:16:12  <dreimark> I'll add the macro to the extensions
2009-04-13T20:18:37  <dreimark> MissingHomePage  HelpOnFormatting WordIndex HelpContents FrontPage
2009-04-13T20:18:38  <dreimark> TitleIndex FindPage MissingPage RecentChanges SiteNavigation
2009-04-13T20:18:53  <dreimark> ThomasWaldmann: TheSheep do you miss a page? ^^^
2009-04-13T20:21:38  <TheSheep> dreimark: I don't understand
2009-04-13T20:22:26  <dreimark> those pages are mentioned in the po files.
2009-04-13T20:23:38  <dreimark> if one configures his natural lang. then those pages can show up
2009-04-13T20:23:46  <dreimark> translated to his lang.
2009-04-13T20:25:26  <dreimark> We have at our company a lot of foreigners. I think it is worth to ask them to work on these pages to get them good translated
2009-04-13T20:25:46  <TheSheep> dreimark: I still don't understand your question
2009-04-13T20:26:29  <dreimark> The question is what is the minimum needed translated pages
2009-04-13T20:26:39  <TheSheep> how can I know?
2009-04-13T20:27:01  <TheSheep> I wasn't there when the translation system was put in place, and never really used it :(
2009-04-13T20:27:23  <TheSheep> all my clients wanted fixed single language
2009-04-13T20:27:47  <TheSheep> and all my other wikis are English
2009-04-13T20:28:39  <TheSheep> dreimark: I think there was a 'MinimalWiki' page on moinmoin with a minimal list of pages used by moin
2009-04-13T20:28:41  <dreimark> change one of your wiki's to a lang other than english and you know what i mean
2009-04-13T20:29:08  <dreimark> e.g. the navigation changes
2009-04-13T20:29:30  <TheSheep> http://moin.sheep.art.pl/ <-- forced polish
2009-04-13T20:30:15  <dreimark> it is 1.8 there polish seems no to work (at leas here)
2009-04-13T20:30:17  <dreimark> +t
2009-04-13T20:30:30  <TheSheep> I probably should do a fresh install
2009-04-13T20:30:52  <TheSheep> I've been experimenting on that one since a while...
2009-04-13T20:34:58  <dreimark> TheSheep: try it on master19.moinmo.in
2009-04-13T20:35:36  <TheSheep> dreimark: it's English
2009-04-13T20:35:50  <dreimark> login and change to polski
2009-04-13T20:36:00  <dreimark> in settingsw
2009-04-13T20:36:52  <TheSheep> ok
2009-04-13T20:37:52  <dreimark> navigation is changed to translated pages
2009-04-13T20:38:14  <TheSheep> at least the first 3 tabs
2009-04-13T20:39:28  <dreimark> that is because of the po file
2009-04-13T20:40:01  <dreimark> the first three are translated and do exist as pages in english or in their translation
2009-04-13T20:40:27  <dreimark> (that's the reason why the renaming of pages must be constistent to the po file)
2009-04-13T20:40:31  <TheSheep> that I understand
2009-04-13T20:40:41  <TheSheep> but what were you asking?
2009-04-13T20:41:33  <dreimark> if there are other important pages which I can't figure out from the po file
2009-04-13T20:41:57  <TheSheep> how would I check that?
2009-04-13T20:43:00  <TheSheep> PrzypadkoweMądrości <-- TipOfTheDay
2009-04-13T20:43:05  <TheSheep> is that an important page>
2009-04-13T20:43:07  <TheSheep> ?
2009-04-13T20:43:14  <TheSheep> it's used on default RecentChanges
2009-04-13T20:43:45  <TheSheep> WikiSandbox?
2009-04-13T20:44:32  <TheSheep> OrphanedPages, WantedPages?
2009-04-13T20:44:39  <TheSheep> RandomPage?
2009-04-13T20:44:49  <dreimark> HelpOnMoinWikiSyntax
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2009-04-13T20:49:47  <dreimark> ThomasWaldmann: can these strings be added to the po file too?
2009-04-13T20:51:43  <ThomasWaldmann> for what?
2009-04-13T20:52:41  <dreimark> to have a mapping to page names for translations
2009-04-13T20:53:08  <ThomasWaldmann> for what do you need that?
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2009-04-13T20:54:16  <dreimark> I think there must be not everything translated (of course it can) but a minimum of pages is needed already because they are already defined in the po file
2009-04-13T20:54:27  <TheSheep> I think it would be nice to have a prioritized list of pages that need to be translated
2009-04-13T20:54:35  <TheSheep> yeah
2009-04-13T20:54:44  <dreimark> that was the reason why i write that macro
2009-04-13T20:55:21  <ThomasWaldmann> the po file is used for stuff that needs to be translated by the moin code
2009-04-13T20:55:59  <TheSheep> can this macro be considered moin code?
2009-04-13T20:58:39  <ThomasWaldmann> i don't know that macro
2009-04-13T20:58:53  <dreimark> http://moinmo.in/ReimarBauer?action=AttachFile&do=view&target=SystemPages.py
2009-04-13T20:59:44  <dreimark> I can add it to extensions or the core code. I don't want to have it in extensions and five min later moved
2009-04-13T21:02:20  <dreimark> ThomasWaldmann: TheSheep ^^^
2009-04-13T21:03:05  <TheSheep> I think it's helpful
2009-04-13T21:03:39  * dreimark too (because with that you can ask people easier than now)
2009-04-13T21:04:16  <ThomasWaldmann> yeah, such a macro could be useful, instead of SystemPagesInXxxGroup
2009-04-13T21:04:33  <ThomasWaldmann> but the macro code looks a bit too complicated
2009-04-13T21:05:15  * dreimark knows that I always can learn from you
2009-04-13T21:05:32  <TheSheep> maybe an action? :)
2009-04-13T21:05:50  <TheSheep> or would it make sense to add it to SystemInfo?
2009-04-13T21:05:54  <dreimark> a macro can be added to a page with instructions
2009-04-13T21:06:45  <ThomasWaldmann> it should be less monolithic in any case
2009-04-13T21:06:46  <dreimark> SystemInfo is also fine
2009-04-13T21:07:07  <ThomasWaldmann> maybe a brainstorming wiki page before coding would be fine
2009-04-13T21:08:16  <ThomasWaldmann> in i18n, there could be a (python) list of en system and help pages
2009-04-13T21:09:00  <ThomasWaldmann> (replaces SystemPagesInEnglishGroup)
2009-04-13T21:09:00  <dreimark> people are different me sometimes wants to know if that is possible to be coded
2009-04-13T21:09:48  <ThomasWaldmann> to generate SystemPagesInXxxGroup, some function can be called, giving Xxx as param
2009-04-13T21:10:23  <dreimark> it should not give a complete list that won't give a list of priority
2009-04-13T21:11:10  <ThomasWaldmann> a macro or action then can use this data to display a table with original pagelink and translated paglink
2009-04-13T21:11:51  <ThomasWaldmann> the macro could even compare some metadata to show outdated stuff
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2009-04-13T21:12:46  <ThomasWaldmann> that would enable us to kill all the group pages on master wiki
2009-04-13T21:13:11  <ThomasWaldmann> we just need to use the code generating those groups from the i18n updating scripts
2009-04-13T21:14:00  <ThomasWaldmann> and just using a list means that it can be ordered by importance
2009-04-13T21:14:32  <dreimark> it can be weighted from the po file
2009-04-13T21:14:54  <ThomasWaldmann> like?
2009-04-13T21:15:19  <dreimark> they must be on top.
2009-04-13T21:15:52  <ThomasWaldmann> forget that
2009-04-13T21:16:59  <ThomasWaldmann> i don't know exactly why (I suspect different gettext versions), but sometimes when i run the i18n scripts, it does major reorderings although the strings didn't change that much.
2009-04-13T21:17:45  <ThomasWaldmann> btw, there should be a related featurerequest
2009-04-13T21:18:37  <dreimark> hmm not seen
2009-04-13T21:19:09  <ThomasWaldmann> the idea to show pages that need translation updates is not new at least
2009-04-13T21:20:04  <dreimark> sure I came to that because of the pages I have fixed on master19 I guess everyone who did mass fixes thinks on that
2009-04-13T21:20:55  <ThomasWaldmann> to integrate that (good) idea slowly and carefully into moin, you could use SystemPagesInEnglishGroup and convert it into an python list
2009-04-13T21:21:43  <ThomasWaldmann> like:
2009-04-13T21:21:52  <ThomasWaldmann> _ = lambda x: x
2009-04-13T21:22:27  <ThomasWaldmann> system_pages = [ _("RecentChanges"), ... ]
2009-04-13T21:23:48  <ThomasWaldmann> that module could also take the stuff from i18n/dumm.py into some other lists
2009-04-13T21:23:57  <ThomasWaldmann> +y
2009-04-13T21:25:13  <ThomasWaldmann> could also be pages = minimal_system_page + optional_system_pages + minimal_help_pages + optional_help_pages
2009-04-13T21:25:22  <dreimark> better
2009-04-13T21:25:50  <ThomasWaldmann> btw, 1.8 isn't getting major changes, so please do that in 1.9
2009-04-13T21:26:01  <dreimark> yes
2009-04-13T21:26:50  <dreimark> the problem with the translation is still that only pages names which are defined in the po file will be translated.
2009-04-13T21:27:43  <TheSheep> or in FooDict
2009-04-13T21:29:14  <dreimark> yes, but I mean is there is no rule for a translator how he has to define his page name which links from one page to an other
2009-04-13T21:29:28  <ThomasWaldmann> yes, we'll likely need a more complete pagelist in there for that reason
2009-04-13T21:29:50  <ThomasWaldmann> and that the page structure will be the same for every language
2009-04-13T21:30:20  <ThomasWaldmann> (that comes rather naturally, if you just translate stuff)
2009-04-13T21:30:56  <ThomasWaldmann> before starting, let's discuss a new module name, so we can hg mv dummy.py newname.py
2009-04-13T21:36:09  <dreimark> wasn't SystemPages not ok?
2009-04-13T21:36:43  <dreimark> oh, that dummy.py
2009-04-13T21:37:37  <dreimark> I have seen that file before but never looked into it (unfortunately) I thougt it is an empty file
2009-04-13T21:38:49  <ThomasWaldmann> MoinMoin.i18n.strings maybe?
2009-04-13T21:39:40  <ThomasWaldmann> (btw, dummy.py is referenced from i18n/README, so that needs to be changed then)
2009-04-13T21:40:47  <dreimark> hmm strange I have read README but not that line
2009-04-13T21:41:34  <dreimark> may be longer important_strings
2009-04-13T21:44:41  <ThomasWaldmann> and what if we have an unimportant one? :)
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2009-04-13T21:46:27  <dreimark> hmm, strings is better than dummy but also not very good (my feeling)
2009-04-13T21:47:06  * ThomasWaldmann would just start with hg mv dummy.py strings.py ; edit README, commit
2009-04-13T21:47:14  <dreimark> ok
2009-04-13T21:47:54  <ThomasWaldmann> then make those strings into a dummy = [ ... ] list
2009-04-13T21:48:30  <ThomasWaldmann> and weekdays = [ ... ]
2009-04-13T21:49:20  <ThomasWaldmann> fix the docstring of the new module to comply with our standard header
2009-04-13T21:49:26  <ThomasWaldmann> add author, (c), ...
2009-04-13T21:50:05  <ThomasWaldmann> commit (maybe omit the first commit, should be rather be done in one go)
2009-04-13T21:50:49  <ThomasWaldmann> and then start setting up some more string list constants in there
2009-04-13T21:52:43  <ThomasWaldmann> maybe just copy SystemPagesInEnglishGroup from master19 into there and reformat it
2009-04-13T21:53:32  <dreimark> principle ok, but then everything is hardcoded if the wikipages are gone afterwards. we have to check these lists when we refactor english pages
2009-04-13T21:54:08  <dreimark> (rename and add)
2009-04-13T21:55:30  <dreimark> orphaned needs to be checked
2009-04-13T21:55:44  <ThomasWaldmann> right
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2009-04-13T22:08:04  * dreimark has copied our discussion to a FR page FeatureRequests/PrecedenceTranslation
2009-04-13T22:11:08  <dreimark> new list
2009-04-13T22:11:13  <dreimark> from leslie
2009-04-13T22:15:22  <ThomasWaldmann> dreimark: that irc paste seems truncated at the right
2009-04-13T22:17:37  <dreimark> the irc parser seems to be broken
2009-04-13T22:21:33  <dreimark> good night
2009-04-13T22:25:13  <ThomasWaldmann> dreimark: do you have stuff pending?
2009-04-13T22:27:55  <ThomasWaldmann> hmm, too late |-)
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2009-04-13T23:06:08  <CIA-36> Thomas Waldmann <tw AT waldmann-edv DOT de> default * 4682:088e291e6a21 1.9/MoinMoin/i18n/ (README strings.py dummy.py): rename i18n/dummy to i18n/strings, use it for new approach for SystemPages later
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