2009-05-16T00:18:55 *** LotekThirteen has left #moin-dev
2009-05-16T09:18:54 <ThomasWaldmann> moin
2009-05-16T09:56:34 <dreimark> moin
2009-05-16T09:56:46 <ronny> moin
2009-05-16T10:00:49 <dreimark> I am thinking about more item dependent meta data. currently we use parameters in the markup for setting up a movie object
2009-05-16T10:01:27 <dreimark> currently I ask myself if it wouldn't be nicer to do this item related
2009-05-16T10:02:01 <dreimark> so that you have a form where you can change good choosen values for the item
2009-05-16T10:04:43 <dreimark> e.g. if you have an audio file uploaded. you ussually don't want that it starts immediately playing and you want to have a control panel for it.
2009-05-16T10:07:23 <TheSheep> properties
2009-05-16T10:07:29 <dreimark> yeah
2009-05-16T10:07:57 <TheSheep> but then, some of them arebound to the item, and some are bound to a particular place in which it is displayed
2009-05-16T10:08:05 <dreimark> in the text you ussually interested in setting a width, height and align.
2009-05-16T10:09:05 <dreimark> video plugin e.g. parameter controls of 'wmode', 'movie', 'play', 'stop', 'repeat', 'autostart', 'op', 'menu'
2009-05-16T10:09:08 <TheSheep> I can imagine an edit war over some piece of video that is included in two places
2009-05-16T10:10:52 <dreimark> yes, but where is the data then, can it be meta properties or is it markup
2009-05-16T10:12:01 <dreimark> another point is that we currently singularize the meaning of item as everything is an item which was in the past a page or an attachment
2009-05-16T10:12:35 <TheSheep> but some of the items are still never meant to stand on their own
2009-05-16T10:12:36 <dreimark> if we look at a page of different items can we define this as an own new item too?
2009-05-16T10:13:00 <TheSheep> dreimark: wagn?
2009-05-16T10:13:41 <TheSheep> I think we need to keep it close to the reality and have some "grounding"
2009-05-16T10:14:05 <TheSheep> you can generalize all the way to single particles, but at some level it stops being useful
2009-05-16T10:14:36 <TheSheep> the trick is to stop on the level on which the users think
2009-05-16T10:14:57 <dreimark> hmm, no you always need to be one step further than the user
2009-05-16T10:15:36 <TheSheep> then the users catch up and force you to go one step further, and new users who didn't catch up are left clueless
2009-05-16T10:16:17 <dreimark> that's true you need to become slow at some point
2009-05-16T10:16:28 <TheSheep> you need to stop at some point
2009-05-16T10:16:43 <dreimark> that's very slow then
2009-05-16T10:17:12 <dreimark> I have understand this
2009-05-16T10:19:26 <dreimark> the idea behind that was that you can have templates not only for one item type
2009-05-16T10:20:20 <TheSheep> defaults?
2009-05-16T10:20:25 <TheSheep> or profiles?
2009-05-16T10:23:00 <ThomasWaldmann> maybe having some defaults in the item metadata and override them on-demand in macros or transclusion is best
2009-05-16T10:24:13 <TheSheep> ThomasWaldmann: it introduces two usability problems, maybe not large, but some people may stumble over them.
2009-05-16T10:24:43 <TheSheep> ThomasWaldmann: first, you have two ways of changing it, and some people will only learn one of the ways, and use it all the time
2009-05-16T10:24:44 <ThomasWaldmann> e.g. for a jpeg, if your original item data is 90deg rotated to right, you maybe want to have it upright by rotating it 90deg left
2009-05-16T10:25:35 <TheSheep> ThomasWaldmann: this will annoy and confuse people who prefer the other way, and also people who know both ways and use them as needed
2009-05-16T10:26:46 <TheSheep> ThomasWaldmann: the second problem is that it still doesn't work in the use case where you want a consistent display of illustrations, music clips, videos, etc. in a series of pages -- you have to manually keep them all the same
2009-05-16T10:27:27 <TheSheep> of course, both of these can be overgrown by benefits
2009-05-16T10:27:36 <ThomasWaldmann> ok, that would mean not to have presentation item metadata at all
2009-05-16T10:27:57 <TheSheep> ThomasWaldmann: the question is whether that use case is important
2009-05-16T10:29:18 <ThomasWaldmann> hm? you just said that 2 ways are the problem.
2009-05-16T10:29:23 <TheSheep> I'm probably biased in the direction of consistent style etc.
2009-05-16T10:29:36 <TheSheep> ThomasWaldmann: small problem
2009-05-16T10:30:09 <TheSheep> ThomasWaldmann: it's not a defect, it's a price you pay for flecibility, it's a defect only when you don't need that flexibility
2009-05-16T10:31:12 <ThomasWaldmann> maybe lets discuss it a bit more concretely, e.g. for images
2009-05-16T10:31:58 <ThomasWaldmann> w/h is already given in the image data
2009-05-16T10:32:19 <TheSheep> rotation too
2009-05-16T10:32:22 <ThomasWaldmann> and scaling needs to be done individually from the place where it is transcluded
2009-05-16T10:32:23 <TheSheep> if you read exif
2009-05-16T10:32:25 <dreimark> not in all
2009-05-16T10:32:36 <dreimark> types
2009-05-16T10:33:02 <ThomasWaldmann> rotation is maybe better fixed just once, by an action doing it and storing a new revision
2009-05-16T10:33:27 * TheSheep nods
2009-05-16T10:33:52 <ThomasWaldmann> or maybe some clever upload process
2009-05-16T10:34:01 <TheSheep> the cases when you want to use the same image rotated multiple times are rare
2009-05-16T10:34:43 <ThomasWaldmann> ok, what other image params do we have?
2009-05-16T10:34:54 <TheSheep> alt
2009-05-16T10:35:16 <TheSheep> possibly title
2009-05-16T10:35:27 <ThomasWaldmann> alt is given by transclusion iirc
2009-05-16T10:35:33 <ThomasWaldmann> and title also
2009-05-16T10:35:53 <TheSheep> maybe things like frames, alignment
2009-05-16T10:36:33 <ThomasWaldmann> alignment is also a transclusion param iirc
2009-05-16T10:36:51 <ThomasWaldmann> and frame is one level high, to be done by some special macro
2009-05-16T10:36:59 <ThomasWaldmann> +er
2009-05-16T10:37:52 <ThomasWaldmann> what else?
2009-05-16T10:38:40 <ThomasWaldmann> stuff like galleries are also levels higher
2009-05-16T10:39:25 <TheSheep> cropping is also better done with an operation
2009-05-16T10:39:40 <TheSheep> if at all
2009-05-16T10:39:57 <TheSheep> link -- also transclusion parameter
2009-05-16T10:40:42 <ThomasWaldmann> link?
2009-05-16T10:40:59 <TheSheep> or rather a level higher
2009-05-16T10:41:13 <TheSheep> [[...|{{foo}}]]
2009-05-16T10:41:19 <ThomasWaldmann> yeah
2009-05-16T10:42:36 <ThomasWaldmann> hmm, alt could make sense in image item meta
2009-05-16T10:42:55 <TheSheep> yeah, or title/caption
2009-05-16T10:43:00 <TheSheep> date
2009-05-16T10:43:25 <ThomasWaldmann> title/caption maybe not
2009-05-16T10:43:40 <TheSheep> depends on how the image is used
2009-05-16T10:43:53 <ThomasWaldmann> because it might depend on the context what you like as t/c
2009-05-16T10:44:05 <dreimark> a description of the image for a screenreader as alt would be better
2009-05-16T10:44:05 <TheSheep> alt is context-dependent too
2009-05-16T10:44:29 <ThomasWaldmann> yes?
2009-05-16T10:46:00 <TheSheep> alt should contain text that has *function* equivalent to the image, not necessarily describes it
2009-05-16T10:46:47 <TheSheep> purely decorative images should have empty alts, while illustrations that should evoke emotions should have alt text evoking similar emotion, for example
2009-05-16T10:46:55 <TheSheep> that's in the perfect world, of course
2009-05-16T10:47:30 <ThomasWaldmann> ok, then we can't have alt item metadata i guess
2009-05-16T10:47:59 <ThomasWaldmann> and some simple description of the image can be given as upload comment
2009-05-16T10:47:59 <TheSheep> well, most of the time it's description of the image
2009-05-16T10:48:12 <dreimark> default should be a description of the image
2009-05-16T10:49:39 <dreimark> if one likes to add one if not the name
2009-05-16T10:51:33 <ThomasWaldmann> ok, so we might have a default alt in the item metadata (and that might fit many use cases, but not every)
2009-05-16T10:53:06 <TheSheep> it may make sense to have some metadata in the item that is not used in transclusion: date of taking of a photo, original dpi, etc.
2009-05-16T10:53:38 <ThomasWaldmann> isn't that in the data anyway?
2009-05-16T10:53:51 <ThomasWaldmann> for jpeg and extensions of it
2009-05-16T10:53:55 <TheSheep> depends on the format
2009-05-16T10:54:24 <TheSheep> but you are right, that's outside the scope of the wiki
2009-05-16T10:54:41 <TheSheep> it's not an image editor
2009-05-16T10:54:56 <dreimark> rightsHolder, rights, source ...
2009-05-16T10:55:17 <dreimark> (I have asked already for something similiar to dublin core)
2009-05-16T10:55:24 <TheSheep> source and copyrights may be handy for any item
2009-05-16T10:55:55 <ThomasWaldmann> i don't think I'll think about the rights stuff :)
2009-05-16T10:56:35 <TheSheep> the truth is, anything *may* be handy as long as we are not talking about specific use cases
2009-05-16T10:56:52 <TheSheep> what is MoinMoin primarily for?
2009-05-16T10:56:55 <ThomasWaldmann> it's just way too complex and people caring for it should set up a WikiLicense and a usage policy
2009-05-16T10:57:35 <dreimark> can be meta data pluggable?
2009-05-16T10:58:05 <TheSheep> how about just a dict, to which you can add any keys?
2009-05-16T10:58:10 <dreimark> :)
2009-05-16T10:58:12 <ThomasWaldmann> no, but item classes maybe could be
2009-05-16T10:58:48 <TheSheep> some keys would have predefined meaning, some you could add arbitrarily as needed
2009-05-16T10:59:00 <ThomasWaldmann> with the current ui, noone holds you back from doing:
2009-05-16T10:59:03 <ThomasWaldmann> foo: bar
2009-05-16T10:59:09 <TheSheep> exactly
2009-05-16T10:59:20 <dreimark> we are clear with images or, can we look at audio?
2009-05-16T10:59:51 <TheSheep> I have to run, have fun
2009-05-16T10:59:52 <ThomasWaldmann> we could use a description there, too
2009-05-16T11:01:15 <dreimark> the controls of an audio file are only visible if you give a width and height which you can do by transclusion syntax
2009-05-16T11:01:24 <ThomasWaldmann> (or in general, we could have some short/medium description/summary for any item type)
2009-05-16T11:01:34 <dreimark> sounds better
2009-05-16T11:01:56 <dreimark> may be we can use cddb for audio files to get some info.
2009-05-16T11:02:27 <dreimark> i think audio files should not play after upload - they should on demand
2009-05-16T11:02:29 <ThomasWaldmann> not as a requirement, maybe optionally
2009-05-16T11:02:39 <ThomasWaldmann> yes
2009-05-16T11:04:40 <dreimark> if you don't have width and height you don't see the item controls of the audio player so we use as default some good values
2009-05-16T11:05:55 <ThomasWaldmann> maybe use the minimum good values (as you do not know in what context it is rendered and how much space there is)
2009-05-16T11:05:56 <dreimark> the question is how selective do we need to create the translcusion help syntax for adding an item audio to a page
2009-05-16T11:06:20 <dreimark> in the old system we show only [[attachment:....]]
2009-05-16T11:06:48 <ThomasWaldmann> that is a link and we won't display that in new system
2009-05-16T11:07:22 <dreimark> I know but we will somewere have to tell use {{ }} to get the item in in your page,
2009-05-16T11:07:39 <ThomasWaldmann> no, that is general knowledge
2009-05-16T11:08:18 <ThomasWaldmann> I still have to fix the transclusion stuff btw, it does not work yet as it should.
2009-05-16T11:08:19 <dreimark> {{audÃo.ogg}} is then visible or not?
2009-05-16T11:08:52 <dreimark> I mean how do we tell the default settings I think we should
2009-05-16T11:09:03 <ThomasWaldmann> well, if we decide it shall not play by default, it needs to be visible
2009-05-16T11:13:55 <ThomasWaldmann> btw, we maybe could save some work now by not supporting transclusion at the beginning, except for trivial stuff like images.
2009-05-16T11:15:00 <ThomasWaldmann> so, if you have an audio file to play, you would just link to it and after following that link it would render the audio item's metadata and a player for it
2009-05-16T11:23:32 <dreimark> we could use a placeholder also. at least for audio
2009-05-16T11:24:51 <dreimark> for video/flash I am not sure.
2009-05-16T11:25:13 <ThomasWaldmann> (and maybe some users rather want to use some desktop application for playing/viewing/opening some formats rather than a crappy browser plugin)
2009-05-16T11:26:36 <ThomasWaldmann> flash should be possible inline soon
2009-05-16T11:26:38 * dreimark wishes browser plugins becomes better standardized and less broken
2009-05-16T11:27:21 <ThomasWaldmann> because it is often used for decoration, not necessarily for long videos that would rectify visiting a new item to view them
2009-05-16T11:29:16 <dreimark> you can already convert many mimetypes to flash
2009-05-16T12:16:10 <dreimark> fsck width=100%% means browser width and not object width
2009-05-16T13:10:30 <ThomasWaldmann> bbl
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2009-05-16T15:30:39 <dreimark> http://screencasters.heathenx.org/wp-content/videos/ep089/ep089.html inkscape tutorials
2009-05-16T15:57:45 <TheSheep> dreimark: why?
2009-05-16T16:36:29 <dreimark> just nice tutorials for inkscape. I found it by searching about uniconvertor
2009-05-16T16:54:26 <ThomasWaldmann> re
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2009-05-16T19:30:48 * ThomasWaldmann adds sha metadata to items
2009-05-16T19:33:52 <CIA-19> Thomas Waldmann <tw AT waldmann-edv DOT de> default * 5743:c271a361e979 2.0-storage/MoinMoin/ (config/multiconfig.py items/__init__.py items/sendcache.py): store revision content hash into revision metadata, use it for cache key computation
2009-05-16T19:37:15 * dreimark wonders about WalkerError: ('unexpected node type', 339)
2009-05-16T19:40:20 <ThomasWaldmann> JonnyWalkerError :P
2009-05-16T19:45:26 <ThomasWaldmann> dennda: btw, there is some XXX check ACL behaviour in that cache key code, we have to be careful to not break security at that place
2009-05-16T19:46:47 <ThomasWaldmann> i.e. if someone has no right to read the content, he also has no right to see the content hash
2009-05-16T19:47:04 <ThomasWaldmann> (or use it somehow)
2009-05-16T19:48:21 <dreimark> TheSheep: can you give me commit rights for 2.0-storage
2009-05-16T19:48:25 <dreimark> ThomasWaldmann: ^
2009-05-16T19:48:44 <ThomasWaldmann> you have
2009-05-16T19:50:15 <CIA-19> Reimar Bauer <rb.proj AT googlemail DOT com> default * 5744:1314eb4b1b2b 2.0-storage/MoinMoin/items/__init__.py: items: application, audio and video mimetypes added
2009-05-16T19:50:17 <CIA-19> Reimar Bauer <rb.proj AT googlemail DOT com> default * 5745:15619d5527e3 2.0-storage/MoinMoin/items/__init__.py: items: some default parameter for application, audio and video mimetypes added
2009-05-16T19:50:18 <CIA-19> Reimar Bauer <rb.proj AT googlemail DOT com> default * 5746:7bb9f87e1acd 2.0-storage/MoinMoin/items/__init__.py: items: my copyright string added
2009-05-16T19:50:20 <CIA-19> Reimar Bauer <rb.proj AT googlemail DOT com> default * 5747:ac7fa87aed0a 2.0-storage/MoinMoin/items/__init__.py: items: PEP8 whitespace removed
2009-05-16T19:50:22 <CIA-19> Reimar Bauer <rb.proj AT googlemail DOT com> default * 5748:c0bee5c43b7f 2.0-storage/MoinMoin/items/__init__.py: items: typo fixed
2009-05-16T19:50:23 <CIA-19> Reimar Bauer <rb.proj AT googlemail DOT com> default * 5749:74df334d74b6 2.0-storage/MoinMoin/items/__init__.py: items: UniconvertorImage for mimetypes added which could be optional converted to SVG as cache file and displayed by this mimetype.
2009-05-16T19:50:27 <CIA-19> Reimar Bauer <rb.proj AT googlemail DOT com> default * 5750:8239eb8c9659 2.0-storage/MoinMoin/items/__init__.py: merged main
2009-05-16T19:52:20 <dreimark> that uniconvertor bundled with inkscape works much better than the common one on my box here. I have no idea if that is my fault currently.
2009-05-16T19:52:36 <dreimark> I also files some problems to their project page
2009-05-16T19:53:10 <dreimark> s/s/d/
2009-05-16T19:54:37 <dreimark> bbl
2009-05-16T20:08:37 <ThomasWaldmann> 1.64 + ('audio/x-aiff', 'AIF'),
2009-05-16T20:08:37 <ThomasWaldmann> 1.65 + ('audio/x-ms-wma', 'WMA'),
2009-05-16T20:08:37 <ThomasWaldmann> 1.66 + ('audio/x-pn-realaudio', 'RA'),
2009-05-16T20:08:45 <ThomasWaldmann> do we really need those?
2009-05-16T20:09:06 <ThomasWaldmann> 1.75 + ('video/x-flv', 'FLV'),
2009-05-16T20:09:06 <ThomasWaldmann> 1.76 + ('video/x-ms-asf', 'ASF'),
2009-05-16T20:09:06 <ThomasWaldmann> 1.77 + ('video/x-ms-wm', 'WM'),
2009-05-16T20:09:06 <ThomasWaldmann> 1.78 + ('video/x-ms-wmv', 'WMV'),
2009-05-16T20:09:17 <ThomasWaldmann> 1.71 + ('video/fli', 'FLI'),
2009-05-16T20:11:30 <ThomasWaldmann> 1.132 + r = self.rev.item.get_revision(self.rev.revno) < !?!?!? self.rev is what you want
2009-05-16T20:15:28 * ThomasWaldmann cleans up
2009-05-16T20:31:05 <dreimark> oops
2009-05-16T20:34:07 <dreimark> we use flv, fli files wmv is also a common format
2009-05-16T20:35:09 <ThomasWaldmann> i am fixing some stuff right now
2009-05-16T20:35:15 <dreimark> ok
2009-05-16T20:36:32 <ThomasWaldmann> that converter, can't it write to an open file?
2009-05-16T20:36:40 <ThomasWaldmann> (for output)
2009-05-16T20:40:35 <dreimark> I tried a stringio buffer and it fails
2009-05-16T20:42:28 <dreimark> http://uniconvertor.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/uniconvertor/UniConvertor/trunk/src/app/plugins/plugins.py?view=markup
2009-05-16T20:42:33 <dreimark> +186
2009-05-16T20:43:02 <dreimark> they do overwrite file etc.
2009-05-16T20:44:11 <dreimark> inkscape calls it by popen
2009-05-16T20:47:08 <dreimark> http://www.google.com/codesearch/p?hl=en#q22vBfhwtN8/packaging/macosx-native/Inkscape.app/Contents/Resources/extensions/uniconv-ext.py&q=lang:python uniconv-ext
2009-05-16T20:50:49 <dreimark> on my box inkscape can convert pdf, ps files but the program I can call from the shell doesn't
2009-05-16T20:52:17 <ThomasWaldmann> sorry, but that convertor code smells badly
2009-05-16T21:06:30 <ThomasWaldmann> dreimark: the mp3 player has play, but no stop
2009-05-16T21:13:10 <dreimark> you have not to be sorry me feels the same and I just wondered why inkscape is using it and why it works there much better
2009-05-16T21:13:50 <dreimark> which mp3 player do you use
2009-05-16T21:15:01 <ThomasWaldmann> standard firefox on ubuntu
2009-05-16T21:15:18 <dreimark> but what plays it. I use mplayer plugin
2009-05-16T21:15:22 <ThomasWaldmann> swf never stops loading, did you test it?
2009-05-16T21:16:13 <dreimark> I have some plugins working on opera some others on konqueror and some on firefox
2009-05-16T21:18:56 <dreimark> swf works for me in opera
2009-05-16T21:19:41 <dreimark> I used http://moinmo.in/MacroMarket/EmbedObject?action=AttachFile&do=get&target=mini1.swf
2009-05-16T21:20:06 <dreimark> my ff is 64 bit I know that this makes problems
2009-05-16T21:20:25 <CIA-19> Thomas Waldmann <tw AT waldmann-edv DOT de> default * 5751:86ac78535913 2.0-storage/MoinMoin/items/__init__.py: multimedia items: reduce code duplication
2009-05-16T21:22:05 <dreimark> "100%"
2009-05-16T21:24:40 <ThomasWaldmann> ?
2009-05-16T21:24:43 * dreimark was not sure if plugins will use different params. I have not added yet all from EmbedObject.
2009-05-16T21:26:37 <dreimark> and i don't know if plugins ignore some not used params.
2009-05-16T21:28:24 <dreimark> usually you don't get what plugin a user has. if we could provide converted files (by a less bad lib) then we don't need to care for a plugin
2009-05-16T21:30:42 <ThomasWaldmann> i first want some direct support for items where it is known to work, no crap convertors
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2009-05-16T22:27:25 <ThomasWaldmann> dennda: storage api should have seek and tell
2009-05-16T22:27:38 <ThomasWaldmann> #image = PILImage.open(self.rev) # XXX needs: read() seek() tell()
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2009-05-16T22:32:52 * ThomasWaldmann slaps CIA-19
2009-05-16T22:33:30 <dreimark> looks like we get after 3years waiting a new PIL version
2009-05-16T22:35:59 <CIA-19> Thomas Waldmann <tw AT waldmann-edv DOT de> default * 5753:8141581ae435 2.0-storage/MoinMoin/items/__init__.py: remove xfig support, it had bugs and is based on bad 3rd party code MoinMoin: MoinMoinChat/Logs/moin-dev/2009-05-16 (last edited 2009-05-15 22:30:02 by IrcLogImporter)
