MoinMoin: MoinMoinChat/Logs/moin-dev/2009-06-15

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2009-06-15T00:45:32  <CIA-19> Alexandre Martani <amartani AT gmail DOT com> default * 5931:fbd776d37fcb 2.0-storage-editor-amartani/ (9 files in 4 dirs):
2009-06-15T00:45:32  <CIA-19> Real-time editor: Mobwrite running in-process
2009-06-15T00:45:32  <CIA-19> - Move mobwrite to support
2009-06-15T00:45:32  <CIA-19> - Created DaemonMobWriteCore class, with the core methods from DaemonMobWrite, and make the second inherit the first
2009-06-15T00:45:35  <CIA-19> - Created MobwriteMoinMoin class on mobwrite action, with the methods that translate mobwrite messeges from clients.
2009-06-15T00:45:38  <CIA-19> - Created MobwriteWorkerInProcess that process mobwrite commands directly using DaemonMobWriteCore methods.
2009-06-15T00:45:40  <CIA-19> Alexandre Martani <amartani AT gmail DOT com> default * 5932:2bcd8d6a31d5 2.0-storage-editor-amartani/MoinMoin/web/static/htdocs/applets/Mobwrite/mobwrite_moinmoin.js: merge
2009-06-15T00:48:50  <ThomasWaldmann> ah, the night shift :)
2009-06-15T00:53:04  <TheSheep> yeah, it shifts
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2009-06-15T03:47:53  <fxhp> dennda: ThomasWaldmann: I don't know jinja, I use mako
2009-06-15T04:06:27  <fxhp> To bad moinmoin wasn't written ontop of pylons.
2009-06-15T04:09:28  <TheSheep> I don't mind
2009-06-15T04:10:10  <fxhp> I guess I am kind of spoiled, I've gotten used to the MVC
2009-06-15T04:10:53  <fxhp> The moin source has view and controller mixed together.
2009-06-15T04:12:41  <TheSheep> model too, to be honest
2009-06-15T04:13:30  <fxhp> Yeah, this is my first time looking over the source...
2009-06-15T04:16:26  <TheSheep> it kinda grew over the years...
2009-06-15T04:20:18  <fxhp> Yeah, that happens.  I do like moinmoin though, I just stood up a site at work.  Good following and stable.
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2009-06-15T08:34:14  <ThomasWaldmann> moin
2009-06-15T08:35:44  <ThomasWaldmann> fxhp: look at http://hg.moinmo.in/moin/2.0-storage
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2009-06-15T09:11:45  <waldi> ThomasWaldmann: ups, I missed yesterday, sorry
2009-06-15T09:14:12  <ThomasWaldmann> moin waldi
2009-06-15T09:22:19  <waldi> dreimark: I try to communicate my concerns, my ideas, mostly via mail. I know that he reads them, because I see actions, but he tends to ignore things he either don't understand or are unpleasant, which does not make it easier.
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2009-06-15T14:11:27  <ThomasWaldmann> http://moinmo.in/FeatureRequests/XmlSerialisation < comments please
2009-06-15T15:37:08  <CIA-19> Christopher Denter <moin GUESSWHAT the DASH space DASH station ROUNDTHING com> default * 5938:d38d883b3195 2.0-storage/ (create_persistent_dev_wiki.py wikiserver.py): storage: Perform underlay conversion automatically.
2009-06-15T16:01:45  <ronny> ThomasWaldmann: how do you guys manage room-sharing for europython currently, i want to finish booking everything tommorow
2009-06-15T16:06:07  <xorAxAx> ronny: i am on the room with birkenfeld and mitsuhiko, ThomasWaldmann does room sharing via wiki and dreimark is in the premium hotel on his own
2009-06-15T16:08:04  <ronny> via wiki?
2009-06-15T16:08:14  <xorAxAx> there is a wikipage for room sharing in the EP wiki
2009-06-15T16:09:13  <ronny> there is only one person listed
2009-06-15T16:10:04  <xorAxAx> man wiki
2009-06-15T16:10:06  <xorAxAx> http://wiki.europython.eu/RoomSharing?action=info
2009-06-15T16:10:10  * xorAxAx is gone
2009-06-15T16:11:40  <ronny> xorAxAx: so its all done already
2009-06-15T16:21:17  <dennda> ThomasWaldmann: Looks good. Why do you need the type='user|data' distinction? can't we come up with a x-moinmoin-user mimetype thing?
2009-06-15T16:36:25  <dreimark> moin
2009-06-15T16:45:19  <ThomasWaldmann> dennda: the mimetype metadata is revision metadata, users have no revisions. but we could handle it, we just need to look at different places.
2009-06-15T16:46:16  <dennda> hm true
2009-06-15T16:47:31  <ThomasWaldmann> and also, when we create items from xml, we have to delay create_item until we have read the metadata.
2009-06-15T16:47:54  <ThomasWaldmann> if the item element tells the backend, we can call create_item immediately.
2009-06-15T16:52:21  <dennda> why do we need to delay?
2009-06-15T16:54:41  <ThomasWaldmann> because you do not know for which backend to call create_item until you have read the item metadata?
2009-06-15T16:55:07  <ThomasWaldmann> btw, I somehow had the feeling that we need namespaces :)
2009-06-15T16:56:06  <ThomasWaldmann> so we don't have data_backend = ... and user_backend = ..., but backends = {'data': ..., 'user': ...}
2009-06-15T16:56:52  <ThomasWaldmann> if course we have to make sure that the user backend stuff does not get rendered in unexpected ways in the wiki :D
2009-06-15T16:57:00  <dennda> ah, that was still asuming not to have the type= thing on the item
2009-06-15T16:57:11  <ThomasWaldmann> yes
2009-06-15T17:02:23  <dennda> ThomasWaldmann: do you want to make that a script or a backend? (you talked about an xml backend the other day)
2009-06-15T17:08:31  <ThomasWaldmann> i tried to make it a backend, but you get some troubles then, because backend api support random access
2009-06-15T17:08:46  <ThomasWaldmann> so some script will be easier and more appropriate
2009-06-15T17:10:06  <ThomasWaldmann> the serialization itself could maybe be a method of the item, though
2009-06-15T17:10:47  <ThomasWaldmann> (so you just give a file to some item method and it serializes itself, writing to the file)
2009-06-15T17:15:37  <dennda> that should be a middleware
2009-06-15T17:15:49  <dennda> or something like that
2009-06-15T17:16:22  <dennda> hm
2009-06-15T17:16:29  <dennda> that requires further thought
2009-06-15T17:17:48  <dennda> could be a method on the abstract classes
2009-06-15T17:18:59  <dennda> and then you could have backend.serialize() -> for all items: item.serialize() -> for all revisions of that item: revision.serialize()
2009-06-15T17:21:04  <dennda> the script would then do that for all backends(data, user), add additional wiki stuff and put it into a single file or something
2009-06-15T17:22:02  <dennda> that will be a very large file, potentially
2009-06-15T17:26:24  <ThomasWaldmann> yeah :)
2009-06-15T17:27:12  <ThomasWaldmann> because of that (and the way mediawiki handles it), the idea of using href: and file: came
2009-06-15T17:28:59  <ThomasWaldmann> of course using href: can be a bit problematic with ACLs
2009-06-15T17:29:17  <dennda> what is the "critical mass" for a file's size? (cross-platform)
2009-06-15T17:29:34  <ThomasWaldmann> 1 or 2GB :P
2009-06-15T17:30:01  <dennda> even fat32 manages 4gig I think
2009-06-15T17:30:18  <ThomasWaldmann> iirc dvd iso has limitation of 1 or 2gb per file
2009-06-15T17:30:36  <ThomasWaldmann> and fat32 is 2 or 4gb
2009-06-15T17:30:49  <dennda> oh boy
2009-06-15T17:31:29  <dennda> in the end we'll be rewriting the fsbackend in xml...
2009-06-15T17:31:31  <ThomasWaldmann> with file: that is no big problem
2009-06-15T17:31:52  <dennda> s/in xml/with xml/
2009-06-15T17:33:26  <ThomasWaldmann> ntfs: 16tb :)
2009-06-15T17:36:06  <dreimark> but vista can't boot from a 2tb HD
2009-06-15T17:36:41  <ThomasWaldmann> booting vista is not needed anyway :D
2009-06-15T17:37:44  <dreimark> ThomasWaldmann: how much do we pay per month for the server
2009-06-15T17:38:09  <ThomasWaldmann> 69 EUR
2009-06-15T17:38:16  <ThomasWaldmann> (for the new one)
2009-06-15T17:42:58  <dennda> I wonder how sqlite behaves if the filesize is exceeded
2009-06-15T17:43:03  <dennda> is the file split up?
2009-06-15T17:47:29  <dreimark> ThomasWaldmann: can you please activate acls on http://moinmo.in/MoinMoinTalks/pyCologne-2009-06
2009-06-15T17:47:48  <dreimark> the python wiki has the wrong syntax (old syntax)
2009-06-15T17:50:44  <dreimark> dennda: can a router middleware used to run some pages of a wiki on an older wiki parser?
2009-06-15T17:52:05  <dennda> dreimark: you have two versions of a wiki parser syntax and want to parse them with the correct parser?
2009-06-15T17:53:48  <dennda> dreimark: in that case, store the ones with the old parser as you would normally, but provide a special metadata flag indicating they should be parsed with the old parser (assuming the mimetype for both versions is the same)
2009-06-15T17:57:10  <dreimark> I am thinking abour a future situation we have currently with the german python wiki
2009-06-15T17:57:35  <ThomasWaldmann> there are means to specify versions and charset in a content-type
2009-06-15T17:57:36  <dennda> didn't they plan to switch to inyoka anyways?
2009-06-15T17:57:51  <dreimark> they plan since long but didn't do it
2009-06-15T17:58:04  <dennda> as it's not yet released
2009-06-15T17:59:32  <dreimark> ThomasWaldmann: charset can be difficult or lets ask different what happens if it is wrong choosen
2009-06-15T17:59:43  <ThomasWaldmann> 1 U.S. dollar = 0.722021661 Euros = local maximum :)
2009-06-15T18:00:52  <dennda> the problem is that you don't know the current exchange rate the ATM uses
2009-06-15T18:00:59  <dennda> that's just...
2009-06-15T18:01:46  <ThomasWaldmann> they told I get the official exchange rate (I'll believe it when I see it :)
2009-06-15T18:02:22  <dennda> did they tell you that you'll get the exchange rate of the exact moment you cash the cheque?
2009-06-15T18:02:35  <ThomasWaldmann> no, of today or tomorrow
2009-06-15T18:02:56  <dennda> tomorrow? :-)
2009-06-15T18:03:20  <ThomasWaldmann> they send the cheque to stuttgart suedwestbank hq and they do it
2009-06-15T18:03:22  <dennda> When I go to the ATM I just don't know what the ATM thinks the current exchange rate is
2009-06-15T18:03:26  <dennda> ah
2009-06-15T18:03:44  <dennda> so the best thing is to calculate that beforehand and always withdraw all the money there is
2009-06-15T18:04:06  <dennda> (which only works for the first time since I can't withdraw more than 500$ a day or so)
2009-06-15T18:04:10  <ThomasWaldmann> it's no credit card, but a cheque, so you get it all at once anyway
2009-06-15T18:04:47  <dennda> yeah... imagine the dollar falls by 20% or so over the night your check travels to stuttgart :-)
2009-06-15T18:12:49  <dennda> ThomasWaldmann: should we use FrontPage as frontpage rather than LanguageSetup? The latter doesn't exist in the underlay...
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2009-06-15T19:26:38  <dreimark> bl
2009-06-15T19:32:21  <ThomasWaldmann> dennda: FrontPage -> FAIL :D
2009-06-15T19:32:51  <ThomasWaldmann> dennda: the underlay is currently a bit outdated, but that's fixable
2009-06-15T19:33:03  <dennda> ThomasWaldmann: why fail?
2009-06-15T19:33:23  <dennda> not speaking of MS FrontPage... :-)
2009-06-15T19:33:28  <ThomasWaldmann> because lazy users won't change it, and install some language packs (e.g. "de")
2009-06-15T19:33:47  <dennda> well then, update the underlay
2009-06-15T19:33:53  <ThomasWaldmann> then they will likely have a maintained StartSeite and a unmaintained FrontPage for all english visitors
2009-06-15T19:34:35  <dennda> when switching to permanent storage I retried getting the standard page about 100 times before I realized that it's not frontpage being loaded as the default anymore... :-)
2009-06-15T19:36:39  <ThomasWaldmann> default was HelpOnLanguages since 1.6 or so
2009-06-15T19:36:57  <dennda> ?
2009-06-15T19:36:58  <ThomasWaldmann> just that people read that f*cking page :)
2009-06-15T19:37:03  <dennda> I always saw FrontPage
2009-06-15T19:37:23  <ThomasWaldmann> maybe the desktop wiki setup has FrontPage
2009-06-15T19:37:42  <ThomasWaldmann> and I changed it again recently so it is LanguageSetup now
2009-06-15T19:37:44  <dennda> you changed that in 5919 or so
2009-06-15T19:38:02  <ThomasWaldmann> (that will be the only unpacked page in future)
2009-06-15T19:38:20  <ThomasWaldmann> so people who want a minimal wiki can just unpack the english minimal set
2009-06-15T19:38:47  <ThomasWaldmann> (starting with 1.9)
2009-06-15T19:38:49  <dennda> ok gotta catch my bus back home...
2009-06-15T19:39:03  <dennda> cul
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2009-06-15T21:31:24  <ThomasWaldmann> hmm, how to use ET when some Element deep in the tree is very large?
2009-06-15T21:32:34  <ThomasWaldmann> (I don't want to assemble the whole ElementTree in memory and then use t.write(xmlfile, encoding)
2009-06-15T21:36:15  <dennda> i guess you need sax for that
2009-06-15T21:51:19  <ThomasWaldmann> XMLWriter almost is it
2009-06-15T21:58:38  <ronny> ThomasWaldmann: what are you building?
2009-06-15T22:00:53  <ThomasWaldmann> a wiki item serializer
2009-06-15T22:03:45  <ThomasWaldmann> http://moinmo.in/FeatureRequests/XmlSerialisation
2009-06-15T22:04:26  <ronny> ah, i see, sax ftw
2009-06-15T22:05:23  <ronny> ThomasWaldmann: but wouldnt a smart tarball make more sense?
2009-06-15T22:07:06  <ThomasWaldmann> waldi has also suggested that
2009-06-15T22:07:46  <ronny> im just not sure how reasonable pythons tar lib is
2009-06-15T22:08:06  <ThomasWaldmann> well, it has some problems X)
2009-06-15T22:08:23  <ThomasWaldmann> but we used to have our own fixed version in MoinMoin.support
2009-06-15T22:09:21  <ThomasWaldmann> but i think xml is better, because it is more homogeneous and flexible
2009-06-15T22:09:55  <ThomasWaldmann> i don't need to invent file formats like when putting files into a tar file
2009-06-15T22:23:44  <ThomasWaldmann> ronny: dennda: you mean saxutils.XMLGenerator?
2009-06-15T22:25:43  <ronny> ThomasWaldmann: i only know that sax works well, but i generally avoided it to this day
2009-06-15T22:29:23  <ThomasWaldmann> I looked at the code, it would work for what I need
2009-06-15T23:13:36  * dreimark have thought too about the tarball
2009-06-15T23:16:12  <dreimark> the tar from the twikidraw would look like a tar in a tar
2009-06-15T23:16:51  <dreimark> that sounds a bit strange
2009-06-15T23:23:39  <dreimark> ThomasWaldmann: http://wiki.python.de/User_Group_K%C3%B6ln/Protokoll_20080312?action=AttachFile&do=get&target=visitDemo.zip
2009-06-15T23:46:34  <dreimark> gn