1 2011-02-18T00:00:38 <CIA-65> Thomas Waldmann <tw AT waldmann-edv DOT de> default * 10473:65da3b38ab48 2.0-dev/MoinMoin/util/md5crypt.py: md5crypt: convert lineendings to lf-only, no other changes
2 2011-02-18T00:24:35 *** zynox
3 2011-02-18T00:28:31 *** zynox
4 2011-02-18T00:30:05 *** zynox
5 2011-02-18T00:33:45 *** zynox
6 2011-02-18T01:11:08 <MattMaker> kvstore docs: " A flexible Key/Value store It can store arbitrary key names (unicode), new key names are added automatically. "
7 2011-02-18T01:11:26 <MattMaker> currently, it is not enforced that key names shall be unicode
8 2011-02-18T01:12:15 <ThomasWaldmann> does it need to?
9 2011-02-18T01:13:05 <MattMaker> per what you were saying earlier, I believe yes
10 2011-02-18T01:13:33 <MattMaker> otherwise I might use 'uuid' in one place, u'uuid' in another, and make two entries
11 2011-02-18T01:13:49 <MattMaker> which the code may actually be doing right now in some spots
12 2011-02-18T01:14:15 <MattMaker> the key 'itemlinks' for example
13 2011-02-18T01:14:36 <MattMaker> I created a page and made one revision of it
14 2011-02-18T01:14:53 <MattMaker> rev 0 has an 'itemlinks' key
15 2011-02-18T01:15:02 <MattMaker> rev 1 has an u'itemlinks' key
16 2011-02-18T01:15:10 <ThomasWaldmann> oh %)
17 2011-02-18T01:15:56 <ThomasWaldmann> btw, i moved kvstore in one of the last changesets
18 2011-02-18T01:16:09 <MattMaker> I pulled that yes
19 2011-02-18T01:16:52 <MattMaker> same comment as above for keys 'uuid' and 'itemtransclusions'
20 2011-02-18T01:17:58 <MattMaker> option 1, assert unicode key names; option 2, accept either kind of string but convert and use in unicode
21 2011-02-18T01:18:42 <MattMaker> (no change to value field, that would still be taken as it is given and checked that it stays the same type)
22 2011-02-18T01:20:34 <MattMaker> on the other hand, I haven't checked what happens, maybe Python doesn't care if you compare a str to a unicode string when it's an index in an expression?
23 2011-02-18T01:21:42 <MattMaker> seems like a consistent type for key name is safer/less confusing to devs
24 2011-02-18T01:21:49 <ThomasWaldmann> well, i guess we can convert the name to unicode. it already does that at some places
25 2011-02-18T01:23:58 * ThomasWaldmann dissects wikiutil currently
26 2011-02-18T01:24:31 <MattMaker> I guess it might be nice also for devs who want to use "special" characters in their key names
27 2011-02-18T01:25:29 <ThomasWaldmann> metadata is intended to be user-definable
28 2011-02-18T01:25:34 <MattMaker> ooh
29 2011-02-18T01:26:01 <MattMaker> including key names then
30 2011-02-18T01:26:29 <ThomasWaldmann> not sure if we really want chinese key names, but it could be possible :)
31 2011-02-18T01:27:11 <MattMaker> if they are a user-facing feature, I suppose we do want that
32 2011-02-18T01:29:00 <ThomasWaldmann> currently, you can edit the json, but that should be nicer in the end
33 2011-02-18T01:29:03 <MattMaker> hmm, viewing the /+meta/ pages, they are displayed the same, with double quotes
34 2011-02-18T01:29:44 <ThomasWaldmann> yeah, so we should only have one type :)
35 2011-02-18T01:30:38 * MattMaker tries editing a page's metadata, but forgets a comma
36 2011-02-18T01:31:06 <ThomasWaldmann> don't make a comma at the end, btw
37 2011-02-18T01:33:08 * MattMaker adds a ☃ to metadata for a page
38 2011-02-18T01:33:28 <MattMaker> ( thanks, http://unicodesnowmanforyou.com/ !)
39 2011-02-18T01:35:36 * MattMaker adds a metadata item key "☃" with value "Frosty" to this page also
40 2011-02-18T01:36:05 <ThomasWaldmann> hehe
41 2011-02-18T01:37:14 * MattMaker learns from the log that this means u'\u2603'
42 2011-02-18T01:42:04 *** izibi
43 2011-02-18T01:45:44 * MattMaker tries to create a user named '☃' but is helpfully instructed otherwise by MoinMoin
44 2011-02-18T01:47:18 * MattMaker tries putting a '☃' in a password
45 2011-02-18T01:48:39 <MattMaker> that worked
46 2011-02-18T01:49:26 <CIA-65> Thomas Waldmann <tw AT waldmann-edv DOT de> default * 10474:d872d664c421 2.0-dev/MoinMoin/ (6 files in 6 dirs): move plugin functions from wikiutil to MoinMoin.util.plugins
47 2011-02-18T01:49:37 * MattMaker accidentally changes his locale to German
48 2011-02-18T01:50:37 * MattMaker studies this page about "person-lich Einstein lungs"
49 2011-02-18T01:55:10 * MattMaker recovers from that, but makes the fatal mistake of changing the timezone on his Personal Settings page
50 2011-02-18T02:11:47 <ThomasWaldmann> why is that fatal? :)
51 2011-02-18T02:16:01 <MattMaker> it breaks the views
52 2011-02-18T02:16:25 * MattMaker is looking at the error thereof
53 2011-02-18T02:16:55 <MattMaker> something about daylight savings time transition info
54 2011-02-18T02:16:58 <MattMaker> yuck
55 2011-02-18T02:31:07 <MattMaker> apparently the metadata item named timezone is desired to be of type str
56 2011-02-18T02:31:43 <MattMaker> if it's one of those ones in the format of a city name
57 2011-02-18T02:36:36 <MattMaker> erm, how do I turn off the Werkzeug traceback interpreter
58 2011-02-18T02:36:49 * MattMaker wants the debugger to catch it
59 2011-02-18T02:43:50 * MattMaker discovers the interactive Python shell in Werkzeug
60 2011-02-18T02:43:58 <MattMaker> never mind, this will do fine
61 2011-02-18T03:00:53 <MattMaker> oh, exciting! I have the server running in a debugger on one monitor, and when I change a source file everything reloads and restarts! magical
62 2011-02-18T03:02:07 <MattMaker> anyway, I fixed this bug
63 2011-02-18T03:03:54 <MattMaker> patch: flask/babel demands that the timezone be supplied as str, so we convert for this call http://paste.pocoo.org/show/340589/
64 2011-02-18T03:05:10 <MattMaker> bbl
65 2011-02-18T03:15:15 <MattMaker> actually the error might be argued to be the fault of pytz
66 2011-02-18T03:16:40 <MattMaker> also relevant is the line timezones_keys = [unicode(tz) for tz in pytz.common_timezones] in MoinMoin/apps/frontend/views.py, which is how these get into unicode in MoinMoin... but I think that part is fine
67 2011-02-18T04:28:56 *** zynox
68 2011-02-18T04:29:10 *** zynox
69 2011-02-18T06:16:39 *** kasun
70 2011-02-18T06:30:15 *** kasun
71 2011-02-18T06:43:19 *** kasun
72 2011-02-18T07:54:07 *** kasun
73 2011-02-18T08:12:57 *** Marchael
74 2011-02-18T09:12:00 *** kasun
75 2011-02-18T09:25:07 *** greg_f
76 2011-02-18T12:19:13 <ThomasWaldmann> moin
77 2011-02-18T12:19:27 <ThomasWaldmann> MattMaker: u.timezone.encode('ascii','ignore')
78 2011-02-18T12:19:50 <ThomasWaldmann> that can be problematic in case u.timezone is already str.
79 2011-02-18T12:20:18 <ThomasWaldmann> as those timezone names are in english/ascii, how about str(u.timezone)?
80 2011-02-18T14:06:15 *** Marchael
81 2011-02-18T14:17:28 *** kasun
82 2011-02-18T14:35:27 *** izibi
83 2011-02-18T14:36:14 *** kasun
84 2011-02-18T14:37:58 *** Pranav_rcmas
85 2011-02-18T14:52:51 *** Marchael
86 2011-02-18T14:53:51 *** Pranav_rcmas1
87 2011-02-18T14:55:55 *** Pranav_rcmas
88 2011-02-18T14:56:30 <dreimark> Pranav_rcmas1: :)
89 2011-02-18T14:56:32 <ThomasWaldmann> Pranav_rcmas1: maybe start with checking out moin/2.0-dev
90 2011-02-18T14:57:04 <ThomasWaldmann> http://moinmo.in/MoinMoin2.0 there are some basics and some links
91 2011-02-18T14:58:21 <ThomasWaldmann> get it installed, use it, play with it, read the docs, use mercurial, find bugs, fix them :)
92 2011-02-18T14:58:53 <ThomasWaldmann> hanging around here with us is also recommended for good communication
93 2011-02-18T14:59:22 <dreimark> Pranav_rcmas1: http://moinmo.in/EasyToDo
94 2011-02-18T14:59:42 <dreimark> shows some small upto larger interesting ideas to start with
95 2011-02-18T14:59:59 <ThomasWaldmann> if you have different kind of internet connections, using a fast and reliable one should be preferred for initial clone of the repo
96 2011-02-18T15:00:52 *** Pranav_rcmas1
97 2011-02-18T15:01:28 <ThomasWaldmann> i.e. not THAT one :D
98 2011-02-18T15:14:16 *** Pranav_rcmas1
99 2011-02-18T15:16:15 *** Pranav_rcmas1
100 2011-02-18T15:16:41 *** Pranav_rcmas
101 2011-02-18T15:28:46 <Pranav_rcmas> Posted asking for help in the #moin channel, so thought I'd post here since I was redirected :)
102 2011-02-18T15:41:46 <ThomasWaldmann> Pranav_rcmas: did you get what we said ~ 50mins ago?
103 2011-02-18T15:46:07 <Pranav_rcmas> ThomasWaldmann, actually no, sorry. My net connection is a bit flimsy right now, so I'm able to see only your discussion with johnny7 after my own post. If you could say it again, I'd be grateful.
104 2011-02-18T15:51:20 <ThomasWaldmann> (14:56) < dreimark> Pranav_rcmas1: :)
105 2011-02-18T15:51:20 <ThomasWaldmann> (14:56) < ThomasWal> Pranav_rcmas1: maybe start with checking out moin/2.0-dev
106 2011-02-18T15:51:20 <ThomasWaldmann> (14:57) < ThomasWal> http://moinmo.in/MoinMoin2.0 there are some basics and some links
107 2011-02-18T15:51:23 <ThomasWaldmann> (14:58) < ThomasWal> get it installed, use it, play with it, read the docs, use mercurial, find bugs, fix them :)
108 2011-02-18T15:51:26 <ThomasWaldmann> (14:59) < ThomasWal> hanging around here with us is also recommended for good communication
109 2011-02-18T15:51:29 <ThomasWaldmann> (14:59) < dreimark> Pranav_rcmas1: http://moinmo.in/EasyToDo
110 2011-02-18T15:51:32 <ThomasWaldmann> (14:59) < dreimark> shows some small upto larger interesting ideas to start with
111 2011-02-18T15:51:35 <ThomasWaldmann> (15:00) < ThomasWal> if you have different kind of internet connections, using a fast and reliable one should be preferred for initial clone of the repo
112 2011-02-18T15:51:54 <ThomasWaldmann> btw, we have logs of THIS channel on the moin wiki.
113 2011-02-18T15:51:58 <ThomasWaldmann> Pranav_rcmas: ^^
114 2011-02-18T15:53:36 <Pranav_rcmas> Thanks! I'll start off reading the docs right away
115 2011-02-18T15:56:19 <ThomasWaldmann> if you find some docs bug, tell me :)
116 2011-02-18T15:56:28 <ThomasWaldmann> it's all still under construction
117 2011-02-18T15:56:51 <Pranav_rcmas> Sure
118 2011-02-18T16:20:01 <dreimark> Pranav_rcmas: btw. we log communication of this channel at http://moinmo.in/MoinMoinChat/Logs/moin-dev/2011-02-18
119 2011-02-18T16:32:05 *** kasun
120 2011-02-18T16:32:44 *** kasun
121 2011-02-18T16:45:14 *** Pranav_rcmas
122 2011-02-18T16:57:19 *** zynox
123 2011-02-18T16:59:20 *** zynox
124 2011-02-18T16:59:41 <Marchael> moin
125 2011-02-18T16:59:58 <Marchael> ThomasWaldmann: I exported my changeset http://paste.pocoo.org/show/340912/
126 2011-02-18T17:00:17 *** zynox
127 2011-02-18T17:02:03 *** zynox
128 2011-02-18T17:03:47 *** zynox
129 2011-02-18T17:25:52 <Marchael> also it available here https://bitbucket.org/marchael/moin-2.0-dev/changeset/b0c92a806602
130 2011-02-18T17:43:06 *** Marchael
131 2011-02-18T18:20:52 *** Marchael
132 2011-02-18T18:28:15 *** greg_f
133 2011-02-18T19:42:58 *** kasun
134 2011-02-18T19:55:26 *** kasun
135 2011-02-18T20:53:40 <ThomasWaldmann> re
136 2011-02-18T20:53:52 <ThomasWaldmann> hi Marchael
137 2011-02-18T20:54:14 <Marchael> moin
138 2011-02-18T20:58:55 <ThomasWaldmann> just applied your changeset, tests running
139 2011-02-18T20:59:01 <ThomasWaldmann> but it looked good :)
140 2011-02-18T20:59:50 <Marchael> thank you, I will be happy if I somehow can help your project :)
141 2011-02-18T21:01:00 <ThomasWaldmann> are you participating in other FOSS projects also?
142 2011-02-18T21:10:08 <Marchael> Hm, Im think about it, but unfortunately I havent enought time to completely dedicate myself more than one project =(
143 2011-02-18T21:12:06 <ThomasWaldmann> same here :)
144 2011-02-18T21:12:25 <Marchael> Althought moin2 doens`t look very difficult, I want to write qualitative code and improve my skills btw :)
145 2011-02-18T21:12:45 <ThomasWaldmann> but sometimes there are side effects. e.g. if i find bugs in the libs and frameworks we use for moin, i usually report them or even fix them. :)
146 2011-02-18T21:13:18 <ThomasWaldmann> if it is too easy, i can point you to more difficult parts :D
147 2011-02-18T21:13:36 <Marchael> hm, sounds interesting :)
148 2011-02-18T21:14:02 <ThomasWaldmann> e.g. plugin system, storage, converters :)
149 2011-02-18T21:14:39 <ThomasWaldmann> ah, and search
150 2011-02-18T21:14:54 <ThomasWaldmann> some SOC projects will revolve around these
151 2011-02-18T21:15:54 <ThomasWaldmann> or flatland widgets for jinja2
152 2011-02-18T21:16:30 <ThomasWaldmann> also i need to discuss more about uuid usage and tags
153 2011-02-18T21:16:47 <ThomasWaldmann> http://moinmo.in/ThomasWaldmann/Moin2BrainDump
154 2011-02-18T21:17:19 <Marchael> ThomasWaldmann: what you think about Kerberos auth?
155 2011-02-18T21:18:31 <ThomasWaldmann> complicated :)
156 2011-02-18T21:18:50 <ThomasWaldmann> i tried once or twice and hit some issues
157 2011-02-18T21:19:10 <ThomasWaldmann> e.g. the apache2 module seems to be a bit too crash trigger happy
158 2011-02-18T21:19:28 <ThomasWaldmann> (on linux)
159 2011-02-18T21:19:44 <ThomasWaldmann> and on windows, some other stuff didn't make a better impression either
160 2011-02-18T21:20:29 <ThomasWaldmann> did you ever successfully used it within web stuff?
161 2011-02-18T21:21:35 <Marchael> no, because I didnt need it :)
162 2011-02-18T21:21:49 <Marchael> Although I can try
163 2011-02-18T21:22:34 <Marchael> I have linux servers(debian, centos) and windows servers(2008 R2)
164 2011-02-18T21:22:49 <Marchael> *windows server
165 2011-02-18T21:23:08 <ThomasWaldmann> can you comment on replacing our dict|groups|template-regexes by tags?
166 2011-02-18T21:23:28 <ThomasWaldmann> see braindump page
167 2011-02-18T21:24:22 <ThomasWaldmann> tests look ok btw for your cs
168 2011-02-18T21:27:22 <ThomasWaldmann> style needs to be improved for the textcha stuff (and some other forms stuff), looks a bit ugly currently
169 2011-02-18T21:28:32 <CIA-65> Michael Mayorov <marchael@kb.csu.ru> default * 10475:b0c92a806602 2.0-dev/MoinMoin/ (7 files in 3 dirs): Add textchas for modify, delete, destroy, rename and revert templates
170 2011-02-18T21:28:38 <ThomasWaldmann> \o/
171 2011-02-18T21:29:15 <Marchael> oh, thx!
172 2011-02-18T21:30:00 <ThomasWaldmann> thank YOU :)
173 2011-02-18T21:31:51 *** kasun
174 2011-02-18T21:34:26 * Marchael reading braindump
175 2011-02-18T22:14:42 <Marchael> There are many intresting ideas, but Im afraid what at 2 am I dont understand their points at all :) Just need to sleep some hours and I'll go back
176 2011-02-18T22:14:47 <Marchael> bbl
177 2011-02-18T22:14:53 *** Marchael
178 2011-02-18T22:16:20 <MattMaker> ThomasWaldmann, et al: does there currently exist something like an ERD (Entity Relationship Diagram) for the Storage API/Backends/places MoinMoin may store data? something visual?
179 2011-02-18T22:17:21 <MattMaker> I feel that the current model does not fully enforce itself, and that this should be done at the lowest modular level that is practical
180 2011-02-18T22:17:34 <MattMaker> but I want to develop my thoughts further
181 2011-02-18T22:19:21 <ThomasWaldmann> i don't exactly understand your question
182 2011-02-18T22:19:54 <MattMaker> is the ERD part clear?
183 2011-02-18T22:20:03 <ThomasWaldmann> but the answer is maybe "no" :)
184 2011-02-18T22:20:36 <MattMaker> I mean like https://encrypted.google.com/search?q=ERD , boxes and lines :)
185 2011-02-18T22:21:41 <ThomasWaldmann> i have drawn some pics for slides, but not quite erd
186 2011-02-18T22:23:01 <ThomasWaldmann> http://moinmo.in/MoinMoinTalks/27c3-2010-12-29?action=AttachFile&do=get&target=moin2.svg#1_0
187 2011-02-18T22:24:38 <MattMaker> database integrity, IMO, "must" be enforced at the API layer (which it currently does, but incompletely), and SHOULD also be enforced in the backends' own data stores, however they choose to do so -- in order to catch their *own* errors, and also to protect from (for example) plugins that may change the backend's data without going through the API (because it is a plugin for the backend itself, internal)
188 2011-02-18T22:24:42 <ThomasWaldmann> http://moinmo.in/MoinMoinTalks/DLR-2009-09-08 < there are pics, ignore the german :)
189 2011-02-18T22:24:48 <MattMaker> thanks!
190 2011-02-18T22:28:20 <MattMaker> oh, a terrible thought: as it currently stands, shouldn't user-facing metadata require individual ACLs?
191 2011-02-18T22:28:42 <ThomasWaldmann> that's on the braindump page :)
192 2011-02-18T22:29:23 <MattMaker> oh! I missed that bit
193 2011-02-18T22:29:28 * MattMaker rereads
194 2011-02-18T22:29:39 <ThomasWaldmann> currently it only differentiates between: system stuff (ignored if edited by user, like ip, hostname, userid), acls (require admin rights) and other stuff (editable)
195 2011-02-18T22:31:39 <MattMaker> I see
196 2011-02-18T22:33:46 <MattMaker> some of this metadata... is not metadata.
197 2011-02-18T22:34:09 <ThomasWaldmann> like?
198 2011-02-18T22:36:10 <MattMaker> well, anything a user adds to it, for example, unless they are very strict with themselves to only create values that describe the wikipage/node content itself
199 2011-02-18T22:37:24 <MattMaker> "metadata" always risks becoming "content"
200 2011-02-18T22:37:27 <ThomasWaldmann> you mean someone could add his favourite cookie recipies into metadata? :D
201 2011-02-18T22:37:32 <MattMaker> certainly!
202 2011-02-18T22:37:50 <MattMaker> and maybe, to them, that means something about the Item
203 2011-02-18T22:38:40 <ThomasWaldmann> well, but that's a general problem
204 2011-02-18T22:38:46 <ThomasWaldmann> like spam on wiki pages
205 2011-02-18T22:39:31 <MattMaker> to me, the user-editable portion of metadata is a handy key-value store, but is a very separate concept from what you call "system metadata"
206 2011-02-18T22:39:49 <MattMaker> the fact that they might live in the same backend is an implementation detail
207 2011-02-18T22:40:14 *** grzywacz
208 2011-02-18T22:40:14 *** grzywacz
209 2011-02-18T22:42:57 <ThomasWaldmann> well, it is not only intended to be system metadata
210 2011-02-18T22:42:58 <MattMaker> A part of me wants to say, there is no user-supplied metadata, those would be related nodes (or sub-pages, if you permit those)
211 2011-02-18T22:43:06 <ThomasWaldmann> e.g. you can tag pages
212 2011-02-18T22:43:15 <ThomasWaldmann> (that replaces categories of 1.9)
213 2011-02-18T22:43:17 <MattMaker> that is a good example
214 2011-02-18T22:43:26 <MattMaker> it's content
215 2011-02-18T22:43:45 <MattMaker> or it is a microformat
216 2011-02-18T22:43:58 <ThomasWaldmann> or metadata :)
217 2011-02-18T22:44:21 <MattMaker> it is a philosopical concern, but it has impacts on implementation
218 2011-02-18T22:44:32 <MattMaker> metadata is data about data
219 2011-02-18T22:45:02 <ThomasWaldmann> yeah, and classification is data about data, isn't it?
220 2011-02-18T22:45:18 <MattMaker> but if you have a sufficiently interesting collection of metadata, that might look like content, about which you could also have metadata
221 2011-02-18T22:45:44 <MattMaker> like, the set of tags I find interesting, that set is content
222 2011-02-18T22:46:56 <MattMaker> another way of viewing it, is that the non-system metadata of an Item, is actually part of the content of the page, which we are merely rendering in a special format
223 2011-02-18T22:48:41 <MattMaker> a negative way of viewing it, is that having a data store attached to pages, is really like making every wiki page able to contain another wiki inside itself
224 2011-02-18T22:48:47 <ThomasWaldmann> well, we had some metadata as part of the content in 1.9
225 2011-02-18T22:49:03 <ThomasWaldmann> but that's non-doable if you have binary content
226 2011-02-18T22:51:11 <MattMaker> that's an implementation detail, isn't it though?
227 2011-02-18T22:51:32 <MattMaker> why would a binary node not have a text node implicitly
228 2011-02-18T22:51:54 <MattMaker> as part of it "being" a wiki
229 2011-02-18T22:52:12 <ThomasWaldmann> well, for binary items you usually want to serve them "as is" and that's only easy if they are just the content
230 2011-02-18T22:52:37 <ThomasWaldmann> and you have the metadata separate
231 2011-02-18T22:52:57 <MattMaker> then, from that perspective, a "Page" is really also a metadata item
232 2011-02-18T22:53:18 <MattMaker> and the only content is the name itself, the node, the endpoint
233 2011-02-18T22:53:38 <ThomasWaldmann> eh?
234 2011-02-18T22:53:40 <MattMaker> apologies if I am getting too abstract
235 2011-02-18T22:54:02 <ThomasWaldmann> i see rather the name as metadata of an nameless content item
236 2011-02-18T22:55:05 <MattMaker> except that the magic feature of a wiki is being able to create nodes by just talking about them
237 2011-02-18T22:55:16 <MattMaker> the CamelCase thing
238 2011-02-18T22:55:50 <ThomasWaldmann> CamelCase might go away in moin2
239 2011-02-18T22:56:32 <MattMaker> will there be a way to create a node by talking about it, such that a user might come in later and create it for you?
240 2011-02-18T22:56:46 <dreimark> [[node]]
241 2011-02-18T22:56:51 <MattMaker> ah yes
242 2011-02-18T22:57:27 <dreimark> the question is when we hit the point that we need meta for meta
243 2011-02-18T22:57:59 <MattMaker> [[node ]] -- that might be okay, except that it makes the "suggested" namespace of nodes very large and chaotic
244 2011-02-18T22:58:34 <MattMaker> although CamelCase has some issues in that there are some ideas in English that it can't express neatly
245 2011-02-18T22:59:03 <MattMaker> and people use odd constructions like EnglishLanguage to get around that
246 2011-02-18T22:59:06 <dreimark> i often have to use ! for escaping it and some langs don't fit to that concept
247 2011-02-18T22:59:44 <MattMaker> the reason I don't like Google Sites, is that it makes a popup window with lots of choices, when you wish to refer to another page
248 2011-02-18T22:59:49 <dreimark> and some regex need to be very complicated because of camel case
249 2011-02-18T23:00:56 <MattMaker> I agree that those things are problematic
250 2011-02-18T23:01:36 <MattMaker> I am unsure at what point a wiki stops being a wiki, when those UI metaphors are changed, though
251 2011-02-18T23:01:46 <dreimark> we also have the tar container concept if there is more than one mimetype data involved
252 2011-02-18T23:02:15 <dreimark> to represent an item, e.g. all the drawing items currently
253 2011-02-18T23:02:53 <dreimark> one could they that there in principle a png image is also meta of the svg image
254 2011-02-18T23:03:02 <dreimark> s/they/say/
255 2011-02-18T23:03:13 <MattMaker> one of the things about wiki software, is the implicit assumption that an Item is of a type that the wiki server "understands" in some way -- it can present it to you and it can allow you to edit it
256 2011-02-18T23:04:26 <MattMaker> anything mysterious and binary, can then be 'attached' to the 'real' item
257 2011-02-18T23:05:16 <dreimark> it is not so much related to server rather to browser
258 2011-02-18T23:05:37 <dreimark> if you have an editor like ck or svg-edit you can change items
259 2011-02-18T23:05:43 <dreimark> of that type
260 2011-02-18T23:05:51 <MattMaker> but the wiki server software adds meaning and structure
261 2011-02-18T23:05:58 <MattMaker> otherwise it's just a fileserver
262 2011-02-18T23:06:14 <dreimark> yes
263 2011-02-18T23:06:42 <MattMaker> I would argue that the wiki structure *encourages* the user to co-create structure
264 2011-02-18T23:07:52 <MattMaker> dreimark, regarding meta for meta, I suspect the issue will come up somehow with the very first plugin that someone wants to write
265 2011-02-18T23:08:46 <MattMaker> they'll be wanting to add a feature to pages that incidentally requires traversing and parsing metadatas for all items
266 2011-02-18T23:08:59 <MattMaker> and then they'll want to put that somewhere
267 2011-02-18T23:09:49 <dreimark> it depends a bit how easy it is to get it from the meta index
268 2011-02-18T23:10:00 <dreimark> then you can have it quite flat
269 2011-02-18T23:11:14 <MattMaker> sort of a side note, but it has been shown that you *can* implement a fully relational database in a single table having two columns... but exponentially bad things proceed from that
270 2011-02-18T23:11:17 <dreimark> and one could also create a new item for that
271 2011-02-18T23:29:57 <MattMaker> thanks to you both for the thoughts, I will stew on the ideas some more while
272 I study the docs and code and discussions
273 2011-02-18T23:40:47 * ThomasWaldmann kills categories now
274 2011-02-18T23:40:51 <MattMaker> I appreciate MoinMoin and its contributors, and any arguments I make are only for its benefit (and sometimes to improve my own understanding).
275 2011-02-18T23:42:12 <MattMaker> ThomasWaldmann Will there still be a way to create a category just by referring to it in a sentence?
276 2011-02-18T23:42:38 * MattMaker never got around to making categories on his current wiki, but likes the idea
277 2011-02-18T23:43:58 <dreimark> i guess we will have something like a macro or some markup to refer too
278 2011-02-18T23:45:58 <dreimark> http://test.moinmo.in:8080/+tags/Demo
279 2011-02-18T23:58:16 <MattMaker> yeah, that makes sense
280 2011-02-18T23:59:08 <MattMaker> although a person might be inclined to make and use macros, while another person might be inclined to use a metadata item
