1 2013-06-13T00:22:46 *** asingla
2 2013-06-13T00:22:50 *** dreimark_
3 2013-06-13T00:23:05 *** ThomasWaldmann
4 2013-06-13T00:26:39 *** asingla
5 2013-06-13T00:32:11 *** ThomasWaldmann
6 2013-06-13T00:32:11 *** ThomasWaldmann
7 2013-06-13T00:38:27 *** dreimark_
8 2013-06-13T04:41:38 *** asingla_
9 2013-06-13T04:42:05 *** asingla__
10 2013-06-13T04:42:47 *** ashutosh1461
11 2013-06-13T06:01:03 *** ana_ananasova
12 2013-06-13T06:06:14 *** waldi
13 2013-06-13T06:06:21 *** waldi
14 2013-06-13T06:06:21 *** waldi
15 2013-06-13T06:27:30 * xiaq left a comment on http://etherpad.osuosl.org/moin-ui
16 2013-06-13T06:27:35 * xiaq works on http://etherpad.osuosl.org/moin-tickets
17 2013-06-13T06:31:23 *** sharky93
18 2013-06-13T06:32:20 *** sharkfish
19 2013-06-13T06:33:17 *** sharkyraj
20 2013-06-13T06:34:36 *** sharky|temp
21 2013-06-13T06:35:26 <sharky93> ThomasWaldmann, im unable to ping freenode from the moin server
22 2013-06-13T06:36:38 <xiaq> sharky93: ping6
23 2013-06-13T06:37:52 <sharky93> oh, i see, but i dont get any response, 100% loss
24 2013-06-13T06:37:55 <sharky93> xiaq, ^
25 2013-06-13T06:38:55 <sharky93> the issue is irssi does not seem to be able to connect to freenode
26 2013-06-13T06:41:10 <xiaq> sharky93: seems the node irc.freenode.net resolves to is not reachable on shell.ipv4.thinkmo.de
27 2013-06-13T06:42:00 <xiaq> sharky93: try specifying a node manually. lindbohm.freenode.net seems good
28 2013-06-13T06:45:10 <sunu> sharky93: try /server -6 irc.freenode.net or something
29 2013-06-13T06:49:59 *** sharky93_
30 2013-06-13T07:11:13 <sharky93> TheSheep, ping
31 2013-06-13T07:11:36 *** Gnarlodious
32 2013-06-13T07:11:53 <TheSheep> sharky93: pong
33 2013-06-13T07:12:09 <sharky93> TheSheep, ah, so what do you think? :)
34 2013-06-13T07:12:22 <sharky93> i refer to the messages yesterday :)
35 2013-06-13T07:13:41 *** Gnarlodious
36 2013-06-13T07:14:32 <TheSheep> sharky93: I think that the backbone that we have is much, much worse than a proper framework
37 2013-06-13T07:18:31 <sharky93> TheSheep, hmm, so have you had a look at gumby?
38 2013-06-13T07:19:21 <TheSheep> sharky93: yes, it's very similar to bootstrap
39 2013-06-13T07:20:30 <sharky93> TheSheep, so do you feel we could get what we want using that framework :) ?
40 2013-06-13T07:21:22 <TheSheep> how about the other ones?
41 2013-06-13T07:24:41 <sharky93> TheSheep, i looked up purecss .. somehow i could build faster with gumby.. i'm not too sure why
42 2013-06-13T07:28:23 <TheSheep> sharky93: did you make that static html mockup with it?
43 2013-06-13T07:28:39 <sharky93> TheSheep, yeah that was gumby
44 2013-06-13T07:32:56 <TheSheep> well, try the other ones now?
45 2013-06-13T07:38:58 *** ashutosh1461
46 2013-06-13T07:39:16 <sharky93> TheSheep, foundation's layout etc is very similar to gumby..
47 2013-06-13T07:41:51 <sharky93> TheSheep, i'm more comfortable with gumby rather than purecss .. what is left then?
48 2013-06-13T07:42:11 <sharky93> jQuery mobile has much js so that would be an issue?
49 2013-06-13T07:45:17 <TheSheep> yes, jquery mobile is out, I think
50 2013-06-13T07:49:10 <sharky93> TheSheep, what is left then to try.. i think it would be good if you have a thorough look at maybe gumby?
51 2013-06-13T07:49:19 <sharky93> TheSheep, it will take some time to understand and get to the depth of it which you can easily do much faster than me.. if you are confident then we could do this i guess, i could ask for help whenever i get stuck?
52 2013-06-13T07:50:00 <xiaq> stylus, lesscss, sass, scss, ... every frontend framework comes with a different one...
53 2013-06-13T07:52:34 <xiaq> all of which have roughly the same feature set...
54 2013-06-13T07:54:06 <TheSheep> xiaq: And what would you propose that will solve this obvious dilemma?
55 2013-06-13T07:54:39 <TheSheep> http://sheep.art.pl/Unix%20Koan
56 2013-06-13T07:55:06 <xiaq> TheSheep: http://xkcd.com/927/ :)
57 2013-06-13T07:57:31 <xiaq> hopefully we'll have one universal standard in the end...
58 2013-06-13T07:58:31 <TheSheep> and it will be a conglomerate of the worst parts of all the existing ones
59 2013-06-13T07:59:34 <sharky93> line 1 on my ether-pad is scaring me :P
60 2013-06-13T07:59:42 <xiaq> lol, but that will not happen unless it's designed by a committee :D
61 2013-06-13T08:04:36 <sharky93> TheSheep, how do we solve it then :)
62 2013-06-13T08:11:28 <TheSheep> sharky93: we don't have to do it *now*
63 2013-06-13T08:18:22 <sharky93> TheSheep, what would the plan now be to "make it look less ugly" :) ?
64 2013-06-13T08:20:15 <TheSheep> sharky93: well, margins, for a start
65 2013-06-13T08:22:29 <TheSheep> a background too
66 2013-06-13T09:15:38 <sharky93> TheSheep, do we defer the framework consideration to some later time in SoC or simply not this SoC ?
67 2013-06-13T09:20:48 <TheSheep> next time, I think
68 2013-06-13T09:22:45 <xiaq> ThomasWaldmann: my ep http://etherpad.osuosl.org/moin-tickets i've also updated http://etherpad.osuosl.org/moin-rich-index (see last paragraph, specifically)
69 2013-06-13T09:23:19 <xiaq> spy__: we need to work out the commenting stuff this summer :) http://etherpad.osuosl.org/moin-commenting
70 2013-06-13T09:28:58 <sharky93> TheSheep, so I have been looking up the search function.. do you have time now to discuss the UI improvements?
71 2013-06-13T09:35:23 <TheSheep> sharky93: sure
72 2013-06-13T09:39:33 <sharky93> TheSheep, the etherpad ?
73 2013-06-13T09:39:40 <sharky93> @ http://etherpad.osuosl.org/moin-ui
74 2013-06-13T09:39:40 <moinBot> sharky93: Error: "http://etherpad.osuosl.org/moin-ui" is not a valid command.
75 2013-06-13T09:39:44 <sharky93> uh
76 2013-06-13T09:39:52 <sharky93> etherpad @ http://etherpad.osuosl.org/moin-ui
77 2013-06-13T09:49:51 <sharky93> ThomasWaldmann, a small doubt say for example "ADDRESS: ID(stored=True)" .. picked from the schema defined for whoosh.. what does it mean if stored=False?
78 2013-06-13T09:50:27 <sharky93> in effect .. what is meant by "storing" and how does it differ from indexing ? in Whoosh
79 2013-06-13T09:57:36 *** chitrank
80 2013-06-13T09:59:35 <sharky93> so i understand now :) ..
81 2013-06-13T10:17:20 <ThomasWaldmann> moin
82 2013-06-13T10:17:41 <sharky93> moin ThomasWaldmann
83 2013-06-13T10:21:32 <ThomasWaldmann> sharky93: storing enables you to get the original value back. indexing lets you just find the document. values are usually processed (tokenized, analyzed, sometimes transformed otherwise before the indexer gets them)
84 2013-06-13T10:22:27 *** greg_f
85 2013-06-13T10:26:03 <TheSheep> sharky93: I want to clarify something. I will not point my finger to every little piece that you have to change -- if I were to do that, it would be much faster for me to do it myself and not bother anyone else.
86 2013-06-13T10:27:02 * ThomasWaldmann thinks student : mentor work should be ideally 10:1
87 2013-06-13T10:33:02 <TheSheep> sharky93: http://imagebin.org/261231
88 2013-06-13T10:33:21 <TheSheep> sharky93: here's the front page of the foobar theme with the immediately obvious problems highlighted
89 2013-06-13T10:33:39 <TheSheep> sharky93: mostly inconsistent spacing
90 2013-06-13T10:38:44 <sharky93> TheSheep, hmm i understand the clarification .. i was just hoping that maybe we could discuss a bit more during this community bonding phase :)
91 2013-06-13T10:40:35 <TheSheep> sharky93: the worst things are incosistent spacing, too many different font sizes, too many different backgrounds (and too much contrast with some of them)
92 2013-06-13T10:40:51 <TheSheep> other, more high-level problems are menus with dozens of items in them
93 2013-06-13T10:41:23 <TheSheep> disappearing menus
94 2013-06-13T10:41:56 <TheSheep> icons from different styles
95 2013-06-13T10:42:31 <TheSheep> action buttons in the views menu
96 2013-06-13T10:43:41 <TheSheep> and generally the wiki interface distracting from the actual content
97 2013-06-13T10:45:04 <TheSheep> those are harder to fix, many would require a little reorganization
98 2013-06-13T10:45:30 <TheSheep> for example, we can merge the Delete and Destroy actions, by adding a checkbox to the Delete action form
99 2013-06-13T10:46:40 <TheSheep> we should probably also divide the views menu into actual views and actions
100 2013-06-13T10:47:41 <TheSheep> I will copy it into the etherpad
101 2013-06-13T10:48:20 <ThomasWaldmann> TheSheep: be careful about delete and destroy, they are rather different
102 2013-06-13T10:49:19 <ThomasWaldmann> and destroy is likely to vanish from the ui of a normal user sooner or later anyway, because he doesn't have permissions usually
103 2013-06-13T10:50:28 <ThomasWaldmann> but i thought about maybe somehow uniting all that deals with names. delete, rename, alias are all operations that just modify the names list in some specialy way.
104 2013-06-13T10:50:48 <TheSheep> ThomasWaldmann: they are very similar conceptually, and a normal user might just not see the checkbox if he doesn't have the access
105 2013-06-13T10:51:14 <TheSheep> ThomasWaldmann: also, I was thinking about only displaying those editing-related actions in the edit mode
106 2013-06-13T10:51:54 <ThomasWaldmann> yeah, it usually creates a new rev anyway
107 2013-06-13T10:52:43 <ThomasWaldmann> except destroy, of course
108 2013-06-13T10:53:17 <ThomasWaldmann> there are 2 destroys btw, 1 rev and all revs
109 2013-06-13T10:53:29 <TheSheep> that could be another checkbox
110 2013-06-13T10:54:12 <ThomasWaldmann> and likely there should be 2 modes or a different mode than now: by-name vs. by-itemid
111 2013-06-13T10:54:39 <TheSheep> that gets complicated
112 2013-06-13T10:54:44 <ThomasWaldmann> yup
113 2013-06-13T10:55:16 <TheSheep> maybe it should just list all revs it would delete, and you could uncheck the ones you want to stay
114 2013-06-13T10:55:31 <ThomasWaldmann> therefore, I'ld suggest rather not to couple it with delete (== remove a name from the list)
115 2013-06-13T10:56:24 <ThomasWaldmann> it's a rare admin-only thing
116 2013-06-13T11:04:04 <sharky93> TheSheep, should we consider a static background? -> http://moinmo.in/RishabhRaj/Soc2013Application?action=AttachFile&do=view&target=staticbackground.png
117 2013-06-13T11:04:48 <TheSheep> sharky93: that's secondary concern, imho
118 2013-06-13T11:05:10 <TheSheep> sharky93: it gets problematic when the static parts don't fit on the screen
119 2013-06-13T11:06:15 <ThomasWaldmann> yup, just wanted to say that, too :D
120 2013-06-13T11:06:23 <sharky93> true, hmm not so important now
121 2013-06-13T11:13:49 <TheSheep> we should also look at the particular views
122 2013-06-13T11:14:40 <sharky93> should we fix the size of the content box?
123 2013-06-13T11:15:30 <sharky93> i mean, at some minimum value
124 2013-06-13T11:16:57 <TheSheep> I believe it has a minimum size already?
125 2013-06-13T11:21:07 *** sharky93
126 2013-06-13T11:24:08 * ThomasWaldmann just asked on the shackspace chan about ui frameworks
127 2013-06-13T11:33:16 *** sharky93
128 2013-06-13T11:44:51 <sharky93> hmm, noticed now.
129 2013-06-13T11:46:07 <sharky93> While shifting from the content to the edit mode, width of things change, that needs to be made more consistent
130 2013-06-13T11:54:54 <sharky93> ThomasWaldmann, TheSheep how should the UI for namelists be defined?
131 2013-06-13T11:55:17 <sharky93> a widget of somekind or a simple dropdown in the title like as in http://moinmo.in/RishabhRaj/Soc2013Application?action=AttachFile&do=view&target=uifornamelist.png
132 2013-06-13T11:55:41 <sharky93> imo we may not have a different view for it
133 2013-06-13T12:05:51 *** chitrank
134 2013-06-13T12:13:24 <sharky93> Should we use a modal for displaying search results, searching takes me to a different view altogether, i would not want that while say in the edit mode writing something
135 2013-06-13T12:23:05 <TheSheep> sharky93: just click the search button with your middle mouse button
136 2013-06-13T12:24:48 <sharky93> :)
137 2013-06-13T12:25:26 <sharky93> we should define to always open a new tab
138 2013-06-13T12:25:38 <sharky93> ?
139 2013-06-13T12:29:52 <sharky93> TheSheep, any specific design elements which you refer to that hint at how to use the UI as you mentioned on the ether-pad?
140 2013-06-13T12:38:38 *** dave_largo
141 2013-06-13T12:39:02 <TheSheep> sharky93: I don't understand what you mean
142 2013-06-13T12:40:06 <TheSheep> no, we shouldn't make it always open in new window -- the user can open it in new window by middle-clicking when he wants
143 2013-06-13T12:40:24 <TheSheep> it's up to the user
144 2013-06-13T12:40:52 <sharky93> ok
145 2013-06-13T12:41:10 <sharky93> TheSheep, line 50 @ http://etherpad.osuosl.org/moin-ui anything specific you want top point to here ?
146 2013-06-13T12:46:46 <TheSheep> sharky93: for example, for a lot of links it's unclear what they do until you click them
147 2013-06-13T12:47:22 <TheSheep> sharky93: some manipulate the current revision, some the whole page, some just add something to your preferences
148 2013-06-13T12:48:01 <TheSheep> sharky93: it should be obvious from their name/position/looks what they do
149 2013-06-13T12:48:28 <TheSheep> take the "add link" action
150 2013-06-13T12:51:21 <sharky93> TheSheep, hmm
151 2013-06-13T12:57:32 <sharky93> TheSheep, something like a star for Subscribe ?
152 2013-06-13T12:59:06 <sharky93> we could maybe use icons to replace some actions? "cross" is common for Delete ?
153 2013-06-13T13:07:34 <TheSheep> not necessarily
154 2013-06-13T13:07:49 <TheSheep> but if it adds an item to the links menu, maybe that should be in the links menu?
155 2013-06-13T13:08:38 <TheSheep> not saying that it's a good solution, but a possible one
156 2013-06-13T13:10:12 <sharky93> certainly should not be in "Views"
157 2013-06-13T13:10:32 <sharky93> we could utilise the title bar for this?
158 2013-06-13T13:10:55 <TheSheep> careful with that
159 2013-06-13T13:11:05 <TheSheep> it's easy to make it chaotic and bloated
160 2013-06-13T13:13:35 <sharky93> hmm that is true, hence i was suggesting using icons
161 2013-06-13T13:13:55 <TheSheep> and using icons makes it less chaotic somehow?
162 2013-06-13T13:14:10 <sharky93> certainly not bloated .. :)
163 2013-06-13T13:15:08 <TheSheep> the cognitive effort is the same, if not higher, and it's harder to click it
164 2013-06-13T13:17:10 <sharky93> simple renaming works .. something like "Add to Nav"?
165 2013-06-13T13:23:49 <TheSheep> what is "Nav"?
166 2013-06-13T13:24:06 <sharky93> the Navigation bar?
167 2013-06-13T13:24:24 <TheSheep> there is no menu with that name on the screen
168 2013-06-13T13:25:11 <TheSheep> also, add what?
169 2013-06-13T13:25:51 <sharky93> hmm so something like "Quicklink" ..
170 2013-06-13T13:26:14 <sharky93> Then maybe we should change "Links" to "Quicklinks" on the left sidebar..
171 2013-06-13T13:27:59 <TheSheep> you pull one string... :)
172 2013-06-13T13:28:22 <TheSheep> one is for sure, it shouldn't be done haphazardly
173 2013-06-13T13:33:07 <sharky93> it made some sense to me :) .. things on the left side are more like shortcuts
174 2013-06-13T13:35:20 <ThomasWaldmann> currently for foobar: left = global, right = item context
175 2013-06-13T13:40:38 <sharky93> "Add a Quicklink" .. might be a better alternative .. we expect a user to understand the semantic behind "Quicklinks" ?
176 2013-06-13T13:42:51 <TheSheep> quicklink is not even a word
177 2013-06-13T13:43:22 <TheSheep> by the way, I'm not telling you to solve this now
178 2013-06-13T13:43:30 <TheSheep> you wanted an example of a problem
179 2013-06-13T13:43:38 <TheSheep> there are lots of other things like that
180 2013-06-13T13:45:18 <TheSheep> bbl
181 2013-06-13T13:48:42 *** diofeher
182 2013-06-13T13:57:40 *** diofeher
183 2013-06-13T14:38:01 <sharky93> ThomasWaldmann, can you think of any more scenarios where n-gram search would be required ? .. an example being searching for item-names for adding transclusions or linking while in edit mode ..
184 2013-06-13T14:38:49 <sharky93> ThomasWaldmann, you had once share a link for a presentation by Matt Chaput on n-grams, faceted search etc.. i cannot seem to relocate it.. can you reshare it.
185 2013-06-13T14:38:56 <sharky93> *shared
186 2013-06-13T15:12:26 <xiaq> ThomasWaldmann: http://etherpad.osuosl.org/moin-tickets comments?
187 2013-06-13T15:25:26 <ana_ananasova> waldi, please take a look when you feel free - http://etherpad.osuosl.org/moin-mail
188 2013-06-13T16:56:06 *** diofeher
189 2013-06-13T17:12:34 <sharky93> TheSheep, i'm reading a book on creative html design .. i think we now have a very basic idea about how can we make the ui look a bit better.
190 2013-06-13T17:12:49 <sharky93> TheSheep, for when you're back .. what should we work on next ?
191 2013-06-13T17:13:50 *** ana_ananasova
192 2013-06-13T17:20:48 *** ana_ananasova
193 2013-06-13T17:25:02 *** dave_largo
194 2013-06-13T17:27:10 *** birkenfeld
195 2013-06-13T17:27:10 *** birkenfeld
196 2013-06-13T17:33:50 *** brunomartin
197 2013-06-13T17:38:08 <TheSheep> sharky93: I say we start with i18n and lint
198 2013-06-13T17:43:23 <sharky93> TheSheep, you mean start coding ?
199 2013-06-13T18:10:04 *** diofeher
200 2013-06-13T18:22:57 *** dave_largo
201 2013-06-13T18:22:57 *** greg_f
202 2013-06-13T18:48:03 *** ana_ananasova
203 2013-06-13T18:56:14 *** sunu
204 2013-06-13T18:58:56 *** SunuTheNinja
205 2013-06-13T19:30:43 <ThomasWaldmann> moin
206 2013-06-13T20:04:53 *** brunomartin
207 2013-06-13T20:09:26 *** brunomartin
208 2013-06-13T20:58:29 *** dave_largo
209 2013-06-13T22:15:34 *** brunomartin
210
